Flight Mode Episode #4 - Parawing / Wing Foil Board Development with Keith Teboul and Co-Host Nico Hopp

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. On our fourth episode of Flight Mode, we have co-host Nico Hopp and I. We chat with Keith Teboul from KT Foiling, direct from Maui, all about the evolution of boards for wing foiling, pair winging, downwinding, prone and more. So we do hope you enjoy this episode as we deep dive down a few rabbit holes.

[00:00:22] Next, we want to say a big thank you to our team. We have Frank, Stefan and Pam. Thank you for your hard work behind the scenes that makes this show possible. Lastly, thank you so much to our sponsors for the 2026 season. We want to thank North Foils, Mystic and On Kiteboarding for supporting our team. Visit foilivepodcast.com forward slash sponsors to learn more about them. Now I hope you enjoy the show.

[00:00:48] Welcome to Foil Life. Whether you wing, kite, parowing, downwind, pump or e-foil, thanks for being here.

[00:00:58] Well, we're going to talk a little bit about board development today and thanks Keith for joining us and thank Nico for joining us as well. Super stoked to chat about this because I got the opportunity to work with you guys last year and saw some prototypes behind the scenes, but some of those boards have come to fruition. They're out there now. So anyways, kick it off. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I'm just here for the show. Just going to watch Keith. I watch all the YouTube videos from Cobra in Thailand. It's like that was a big show.

[00:01:28] Those videos are really... Yeah. I'm glad to put them up because there's some details I didn't know and it was nice to watch, honestly. Yeah, well for me it just kind of brought home. I wanted to kind of show people kind of what it takes to actually put a board into production and, you know, you know, the how long ahead of time before it hits market that we're actually working on it.

[00:01:50] It's like steps and, you know, working with a factory that's so big like that, the access to technology that they have and just for people to understand what it really takes to put this board together and that, you know, the price they're paying is really actually pretty worth it. And they're getting a product that's well thought out, well built, you know, timing, everything. There's a lot that goes into it. So pretty cool.

[00:02:15] It was a fun project and it was a lot of work. But in the end, you know, I look at it and it was super positive. Yeah. And we have nothing to hide and that's our point that we have nothing to hide. These factories are great. We work well with them. They do great work. You know, it's a great symbiotic relationship and I think that's important with all the product we do is we have great relationships with our factories and that shows in the product.

[00:02:43] Yeah. It was interesting. I like the guy standing there with the, I think it was an iPad or tablet and he was just like, yeah, checking, checking, checking, so much checking going on, like all these small bits and pieces. That was quite mind blowing. Yeah. I mean, they have templates for the rails, they have the iPad for all the little details and where a sticker goes, just everything because, you know, how are they going to know? They're not here day in, day out and it just makes it so they can automize that whole process. Yeah. And that gets right every time for the most part.

[00:03:13] Yeah. There'd be a few things. Keith, how have you seen the evolution of foiling boards and then now parowing boards since the inception of the sport? Like not that long ago. Yeah. Well, I think when we did the super K2, which has been out for about a year and a half now, we were kind of more focused on winging and trying to make something that's kind of a little narrower, a little long in that mid length, you know, type of board.

[00:03:37] And we came onto the market with that board and that's kind of when parowinging sort of blew up or had a lot of people interested in it and starting to learn. And I think we really got lucky with the super K2 and that it crossed over into parowing as one of the boards on the market that was best suited for it at the time. And so we got lucky on the parowing side and the winging side, it's an exceptional board.

[00:04:05] So a lot of people adopted the super K2 at first. And now as parowing has progressed and, you know, lots of different parowing brands out there and the parowings are just getting better, needs are different. And it's also bringing a lot more people into the parowing realm, either from winging or new parowingers.

[00:04:27] And at the time I was using the super K2 and it was, it was good, but I realized that as I was learning, I needed something a little different that was a little easier. And so that's where I started working on the arc, which is our current board in the line. It's more like a parowing wing board, whereas a super K is a wing parowing board. And I was learning, I needed, I needed more stability.

[00:04:55] I still needed that glide. I needed front to back pump because on a parowing board, you need to be able to pump to get up. You're not pumping the parowing so much. It's just kind of dragging you along and you're pumping the board and that's what gets you off the water. So all those things came into play as I was developing the arc and learning myself.

[00:05:17] And so I was really able to tap into what was important, the stability, not some static stability, but to be able to stand in the water, knees bent, kind of flex, just balancing, waiting to go. You know, that that's stable enough. Other considerations were that the board wasn't tracky because the minute it starts tracking, it'll throw you off.

[00:05:40] So you need a very forgiving, stable, as quickly moving forward board that you can do. And, you know, I've been doing lots of testing lately and the arc really hits it all. I'm really, really, really pleased with it. Are there dimensions on that thing? Let's look at my screen. Yeah, we make a 48, 58, 68, 78, 88, and 98.

[00:06:06] And those are just kind of sizes that we came up with in relation to the Super K2 and then also kind of what we are feeling as me at 165 pounds. We have Casey at 175. We have Adam at 185. We have Elliot at 200. We have Kane at 200. You know, we have Kai Lenny at like 165. And then, you know, we have some lighter riders. So for me at 165, my day in, day out board is 58 liters and it's spectacular.

[00:06:37] And then on those windy days, if I feel like, you know, having a little bit smaller board, I can use a 48. No worries. And then when I was in Tarifa for our dealer meeting, it was a little lighter and it was also somewhere I had never downwinded before. So I wanted a little safety and then I used the 68. I was really surprised at how good it felt in the air. And, you know, just being able to be feel like I'm going to get in if there's an issue. So, yeah, really, really pleased with this. This line.

[00:07:07] Where's the skull? I'm missing on the new ones. When did you get rid of that? Isn't it on there? Oh, it's not actually. I think it is somewhere. It's got to be there somewhere. Yeah. I think it's in the tail. No, maybe we're just like, you know, because I get custom orders here and people. Some people like the skull. Some people don't. I love it. So I think in the end, I do too.

[00:07:33] I think in the end, just to be a little bit more, you know, covering a broader range of people and not. Are you sure it's not? No, that's the leash cut. Maybe it is somewhere. I'm not sure. Let me check the other board here. Yeah, it could be. I'd have to look at the physical boards. But just trying to make it, you know, cover a broader range of people. Because, you know, putting a board in production, like we went through on those videos with Cobra.

[00:07:57] It's a lot of effort, a lot of energy, a lot of cost to make molds in order to, you know, make these boards the same every time. And so you're trying, obviously, to sell the most boards you can. So you're trying to make a board that really covers a broad range of use, yet still very performant. And that's always been key to us is one, performance. Two, ease of use. Three, that they look sexy and nice. That's so important for me. Mm-hmm. That a board looks nice. That has a nice line.

[00:08:26] But at the same time, you're not doing it just for that. You're doing it because something actually works. Say, for instance, our arrow nose. I really like the way our nose is a little fuller. But it doesn't look all chunky. And that really flies through the air extremely well. You can go across the wind easier. The nose goes into the wind easier. And, you know, when you're downwinding and you're trying to find that line that allows you some energy or if you're losing your line, you know, going across the wind is important.

[00:08:55] And so I feel like what I developed in that really allows you to go across the wind into the next bump and then turn down. And just I really worked on the whole balance of the board with pair winging. I feel like you need a little more support in the back so that it doesn't take you as long to get out of the water and then get going so that you're already level with the water. And that any energy that comes from that pair wing gets you going right away and then allows you to take off.

[00:09:25] So I really worked on the foam flow and the balance of how the board sits in the water when you're standing on it. You know, so all these things came into play as I was making these boards. And it really just came from me learning and realizing, oh, I need that or it's too stinky here or it's poking in the nose or whatever was going on. And then so I feel like my best boards always come from when I'm learning in that segment.

[00:09:51] So and now that the pair wings are better, it's even easier. So I learned when pair wings were kind of just bags, you know, I'm pulling you along. So you needed to make a board that really works well. And then now the pair wings are so much better. It's amazing. Yeah. What do you think about power wings in general? Is it replacing wings? What do you think of? Is it bigger than winging? I think originally. Yeah.

[00:10:16] Originally, I didn't think it was going to replace wings and I don't think it's ever going to replace them completely. But I feel like it's a tool that's way more versatile than a wing. Yeah. And, you know, I'm starting to see some cool stuff that people are doing. And I'm like, oh, wow. You know, I would I would have more fun on a pair winging just mowing the lawn now than I would with the wing. You know, all these flippy things that they're doing around. I'm like, how do they do that? But it's so versatile.

[00:10:45] And they're going up wind as well as wings now, some of the brands. So it's it's pretty darn cool. I think the second fastest time at Diffie was a pair of wing. Yeah. Overall rating. And that's quite impressive. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me. And I just think it's there's so much energy going into it. It's just going to get better and better. Yeah. Really. It's exciting. Yeah. It's a super cool.

[00:11:12] Can we tap a little bit into your Drifter 5, Drifter Surf and even Vortex? Because those are boards from when I worked with you guys. Yeah. So the Drifter 5 is just an evolution from the Drifter 4, obviously. But what really happened for me and that's actually one of my favorite boards in the line now. And the one that I was most excited about because I feel like I took some of the DNA from the Super K2 and also from the new Arc that I was doing. And I put it into the Drifter line.

[00:11:42] So, you know, I did like a more mellower arrow nose. I went a little longer and a little narrower than the current Drifter 4 or the past just to get a little bit more length in it. And because I was able to get more stability out of the outline now. And, you know, I worked on that foam flow that I was talking about, making it more balanced. You know, I kind of like sexied up the outline.

[00:12:09] And, again, the DNA from Super K2 and Arc went into this board because the performance is so good on those boards. I wanted to bring that into something that, you know, someone who's learning or someone who's an intermediate or someone who's advanced can feel in those boards. And I think I really hit it with that. It's easy to use. It glides well. It releases well.

[00:12:34] On the, like, sort of winging sizes from 44 up to, I think it's 130 we do. And then the surfs, it's the same DNA. It's just a smaller package. And so you can, I've been proning the 30, I think it's the 32 and the 38 a lot. And they're amazing. Same kind of DNA, a little mellow arrow nose, a little concave deck, a little V in the deck. But it's all much more subtle in this, in the Drifter line than in, say, the Arc line.

[00:13:03] And the Arc is, like, I want it to be really connected as far as, like, front to back. And for a little longer package, it's going to be, and more volume and narrower, it's going to be a little thicker. But the Arc, I did go a little wider than the Super K to get that deck thinner so you're, you know, more connected. Whereas the Drifters, they're shorter, but they're wider, so you're able to still get that connection to your foil.

[00:13:32] Being a thinner, thinner, wider, shorter package, but not too short, too wide, or, you know, and all that. So really, I've been kind of finding the measurements that I like to hit in widths and lengths and that ratios. It's all really important. And I've been, I feel like I really hit it out of the park this year with our whole line. And there's a lot of what we learned from the Super K 2 that was really successful for us, and that got brought into each of the new lines.

[00:14:01] And that all started from the downwinding boards that I've been doing for so long. You know, from the crossing, the surf, and then the, what's the other one? There's another one. And all that. Dragonfly. Dragonfly. Dragonfly, yeah. And all that comes into the Super K 2, and then that translates into these new boards this year. So it's kind of always an evolving thing.

[00:14:25] And you learn from each one and then take the best of what you feel is going to work for people and put it into the line. When you say sexy boards, the first time I saw the Super K in the Super K 2, that cut off wide tail. To me, at the beginning, it didn't look very appealing until I tried it. I was like, wow, this totally makes sense.

[00:14:45] But having a prone background and all these sexy prone boards like pin tails, round tails, that cut off tail, which has become very popular. And I think the Super K was one of the first boards actually introducing this to the market. Do you think that's a sexy look for you now? I think it takes some time to get used to the look just from the board. That's a good point. I think, yeah, at first you're kind of like, ooh, that's a little bit cut off or whatever.

[00:15:13] I tried to make it as sexy as I could with the parameters that I put in place because of how it worked. So that's a case of like, you know, for me, at least in R&D, we realized that if you start pulling in the outlines and pulling in the bottom shape too much, they get a little bit. They want to round up. They want to round up into the wind or round down as you're trying to get up winging or whatever.

[00:15:38] So we wanted to make that line on the bottom a little more parallel and not pull in the tail. And so it was a function of feeling something and the shape needed to have some parameters in it in order to work well for us and what we thought. And then I had to adjust the tail to look as sexy as I could. So it started as something that we wanted to have in there because it worked well.

[00:16:06] But then I'm like, OK, how can I make it look sexier? And, you know, I did what I could. And, you know, that tail really comes from sailboats and the way they're cut in the back and the way the water pushes. And so there's very functionalness in it. But then again, I try to make it sexy, you know, sexy. And, you know, with the arc, it's even a little more square and even square kind of rails. And the squareness in the back allows, again, the nose to go into the wind more because of the arowness.

[00:16:35] And then the wind's pushing on a flat in the back. So it kind of pushes you into the wind if you need. And then also that width back there, we needed more stability to stand on. And, yeah, a pulled in outline looks way sexier. But in this context, for me and what we're into and what we found, it didn't work as well. So that's why we went that way. Doesn't mean someone else can't figure it out. Now, I think they do look better in reality.

[00:17:04] I think it's just you see them for the first time on plain paper. Same with the gray color you came up last year. The first time I saw the gray kind of shiny on the new boards, I was like, wow, really? And then I saw it in reality and I was like, oh, it actually looks quite nice with a red offset. So sometimes you have to see and touch a board and then it's a lot better. And also the tail because the tail has like this little to it. Yeah.

[00:17:29] And then there's the different little segments that we have on the board that are kind of a little more defined. And those are super important for release. And so there's there's a lot of thought and energy that goes into a board from what's happening when it's touching the water to what's happening when it's in the air. And I think originally we had a feeling that it wasn't so important. But as we get into it more and more, everything is more important.

[00:17:55] If you have a foil that you're changing one degree to get more performance. I mean, come on. You got to be standing on a board that, you know, every little degree helps. I mean, I tried a new fuselage yesterday and I was going 10 percent, 10 percent. I was going quite a bit faster. It was easier to turn, you know, so we're always looking for performance and it's got to be everywhere, not just the foils. Yeah. Foils can only do so much. The boards, you know, need to follow and there needs to be thought.

[00:18:23] And there is, you know, people think about it now. I think in the beginning, not so much, but now it's really, really important. It's the same with weight. Like a lot of people, when you swap screws, for example, from stainless steel, let's say to titanium and that's a few grams, maybe two grams a screw. People say that doesn't matter. But like you said, you have to, if you want the lightest setup, you have to look at every single component and it all adds up. And that's the same with every piece of performance.

[00:18:49] And the board, I think, is very important in that, especially in power winging. Like you said, you're not able to pump that hard. So the board becomes a lot more important, I think, in power winging. Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah. And, you know, that's the process that we went through and we always go through when we're putting boards in production. It's like, where can we pull from to save weight? What can we do? So there's a ton of thought that goes into every little thing. How can we be more connected?

[00:19:16] I've been doing some really wacky prototyping about trying to, you know, connect to the deck and this and that. And it leads to things. And, you know, so there's a lot of energy that we're putting into now to try and make foiling better and better. And, you know, just like you said, every little bolt adds up. And so it's important. And I think weight is important in both ways. You know, a board can be, I'm not going to say too light, but there's things that happen when a board gets really light.

[00:19:45] You know, it's a different kind of pump. It's a different kind of touchdown. And it's not bad or good. It's just different. And so you can adapt to it. And there's pros and there's some cons. I'm not saying a heavy board is good. I don't think a heavy board anytime is good. But you get to a point when a board is super light and there's things that come along with that. That's what we found anyway. One, you know, when you touch down, you stop quicker. When you get going, you get going quicker.

[00:20:13] That's what I feel like because it's so light and you have weight that you just, you know. So then the shape is even more critical. Yeah. So light boards are amazing. And for parent winging, it's amazing. So we're always playing with that and trying to find a balance between weight, feel, cost. You know, all those things come into play because, again, you're trying to sell boards. Yeah, I could make a super, super light board, but it's going to cost you $4,000.

[00:20:42] Or whatever. And there might be a few people who would want that. But in general, that's a pricey board. And the price to what you get, I think it's worth it for someone who has that budget. But I think someone who doesn't have that budget, it's not something that you need in order to perform. So my thoughts anyway. So no, that's fair.

[00:21:07] Do you, that means Holotech is never going to make it to those shorter or smaller boards and it doesn't make sense. I'm not saying Holotech's not going to make. No, I think there's room for it. You know, we're playing with it. I could have done it a year and a half ago. I could have had boards on the market that are, we already do. We have the crossing. I have the technology. We just chose not to go there yet because we want to make sure and do enough testing that we find the strongest, lightest possible combination.

[00:21:36] And we felt really good about our full sandwich boards and for the strength to weight to cost ratio is in a really nice spot. And then the next step was on the arc. We make an arc that's strapless. So we have a strapped version and then we have a strapless. And it's about a pound to a pound and a half in that range lighter.

[00:22:01] And so people, we've had good grip with it. People are wanting the strapless, you know. I like to strap when I'm pair winging, but I do like to strapless as well, so both. And there is a difference. So it's nice and I feel like we hit a really good spot.

[00:22:21] I could see maybe in the future adopting a hollow board without straps because you start adding straps to a hollow board, it adds a level of stress that can be difficult for a hollow construction. But, you know, I'm doing samples right now just to see if I can make something that's really light. Yeah. What do you think about the title that Slingshot just came out with? And what do you think that's going to do?

[00:22:51] That's my question. Board development. I think. In between. Yeah. On a hollow board, it absolutely makes sense to put it as a in between the hollow section. You need something under your back foot. And if you have the US tracks and you place them with a RADX system or a TUTTLE, that makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, if they're both nicely thought out systems, they seem to be working well. They're addressing some issues or some things that people are wanting to feel a little more connectedness and all that.

[00:23:21] I guess what's hard about it is that you have to commit. You know, so it's committing to a system, you know, a TUTTLE mast. You know, there's always adjusters and adapters. I mean, I guess that's the only thing. And that's what's difficult when you want to bring something new into the market with some constraints of like how we attach our foils now. Sure. Sure.

[00:23:45] You might hit a new customer, but then they're going to be limited to a certain system unless everybody adopts it. And so I try not to make products that limit people and what they can use, even if it's limiting it to my own system, because, you know, someone might not want to use my foil. So and that's fine with my board, but my board works well. So they want to use my board.

[00:24:11] So unless the whole industry adopts it and it's available, you know, then I mean, Ken came to us before all of that and wanted to develop it and, you know, whatever. It didn't work out. But it's a cool idea and I like it, you know, I don't know how much adjustability you have. It seems like there's a bit and it's probably enough if you place the box, right? I think roughly an inch, probably inches, I think. Yeah. Yeah. If you place the box right, then that's good.

[00:24:40] That's enough. But you definitely have to get it right. Yeah. You can also change the angle of a tag if you want to. Which is interesting. Yeah. You know, but again, I think, you know, I have ideas to connect. You know, I've been working on stuff and all that. But then when you look at the reality of it, so let's say I want to bring in a new system. I have to make a system that is adaptable to everybody's foil and attach and so on.

[00:25:09] And it's just so many things to variables that it's hard to make a system that's going to cover it all. And, you know, we're about inclusion, not exclusion in a way, you know, only in the best way. Yeah. I mean, you know, I need to make, I need to sell boards. It's important. Yes. It is. Unless it becomes the new standard. But now we're already seeing two systems.

[00:25:33] We've got the Red X, we've got the Tuttle, which makes it even harder for them to become some sort of a standard, I think. So, and for me, it's like, look, let's say Slingshot has this system and they came up with it. And then, you know, it's Apple Tree comes up with the Red X system. It's like, why would I support that as another brand? It's difficult. I'm happy for them. And it's amazing. They're doing development. It's great. Amazing.

[00:26:00] But as a brand, I'm like, well, I want a system that's universal and that, you know, unless it really becomes adopted and everybody wants it, which could be the case. And I'm open. I'm completely open. So I'm not against it. But there's always pros and cons and you have to look at it from our business standpoint. And the system that's in place now works and it's not bad. So I try and work around a system that's working and make that better if I can and get creative with that.

[00:26:30] But again, maybe this new system will be the norm, but it's just developed both of them. They'll have their issues. They'll have their pros, their cons. And I can already see and I already have, you know, not knowledge, but I already have experience with Tuttle and all that and what's good and what, you know, the constraints that they have like any system. So.

[00:26:55] Do you think you're going to get the performance benefits out of it that people are talking about? Does that direct feel going to be that much better compared to some of the new shapes or designs or kind of kind of combinations? I think you get more out of the shapes and designs than you do with the connectedness because I've done I've been testing connectedness lately and I think there's other ways to get it without having to come up with a new system.

[00:27:22] And that's kind of more of the direction I've been working on because I had an idea and I've gone through the R&D. But again, it's an idea that would require so much thought and energy and looking at everybody's plates and this and that. And I started into it and the benefit that Cain felt from it. He's like, it's not worth it.

[00:27:48] Yeah, I feel more connected, but I think we can get that in another way that's simpler. Yeah. And that one, people are going to accept because it's kind of more the norm. You know, if you're having to commit to something that's performance based that could work really well, but you're kind of on your own little group there. It's not like it's open. It's limiting.

[00:28:14] Yeah, I'm not going to say it's limiting because it's not limiting for them. But I think for guys who can feel the difference and are willing to have that one word for that and that setup, it's going to work and it's going to be amazing. And there are nice attributes to being able to keep the bottom shape the way you want it because it doesn't the footprint so much smaller.

[00:28:36] And so, yeah, there's pros to that, you know, but I think with the system we've had now, I've been able to work pretty well with it to get all the performance that you need and you're not losing much. That's kind of where I'm at with that. Because, again, why would someone adopt my system if it doesn't benefit them in any way? I don't know. It's like I do see a little bit of potential.

[00:29:06] If we move on to, like I said before, if you move on to hollow boards and you do need some support on the back foot, that's where the track is. And if you use a tuttle or some sort of connection, red axis or whatever, to connect the top and bottom to make it stiff enough and stable. So you're taking a piece of construction which you would need any way and get a little bit more function. If you have any questions, comments, or if you would like to hear a particular guest or if there's a cool company you wanted us to talk to, send us a DM.

[00:29:36] I think you can get that the same way. And we'll do our best to organize the chat. Thanks again for tuning in. But I could be wrong. We'll see you in the next one. You know, you can still get a very connectedness. And again, that's what we're working on. And again, I wanted to come up with something more connected, you know, on the deck, this and this. And I've been working on it. And it's just, sure, you're feeling a little more connectedness. But I'm just, in the end, there's too many variables to figure out.

[00:30:03] And it's just not worth it for me at this point. So what was a real game changer in Falling for you? Like, I hate the expression game changers. But some things are really changing the game. What was it for you, if you look back the last two, three years? I mean, for me, it was the introduction of the foils that Kane designed, the Atlas and the Nomad. That, as a foiler personally, it really helped me develop and learn foiling more quickly because of the low end that he put into those foils.

[00:30:31] So that, for me, was a game changer. And then I think the Super K2 design really was a game changer for me and my understanding and, you know, how well it was received in the market and the feedback I got. And that now developing to these new boards. And I feel like we're in a really good spot as a brand and the product that we've created and the way we go about it.

[00:30:59] So, yeah, the foils and the Super K2 for me were the ones that really changed. It was a game changer for me. And I think that, you know, in the market, at least from my perspective, it's definitely pushed other brands to go different ways or to look at what we're doing. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like that's the energy I'm feeling. I would actually agree.

[00:31:24] And, like, I'm based in Germany and sometimes it takes some time before we get trends from around the world back here to Germany. But I see KT and especially the Super K making its way into the local wing foilers because it just works. And everyone who's tried it, like, I've just been at the Femann Foil Festival and some people ask me, like, I want something easy takeoff. What should I take? And I said, well, go and try.

[00:31:52] Just grab a board, go out and pump it. Like, don't try to rely on the wing. Try to pump the board. Feel it. Touchdown. Go straight. Do a touchdown. Go on an angle. Touchdown on an angle. And a lot of people came back. They said, well, the Super K2 was super impressive. And I was like, it gets up so easy and early. And I think it's a great compromise. I think one of the biggest compromise you're making in boards, and this is especially important for power wing, is stability and speed.

[00:32:20] You could make a board that's super fast and take off, but then you may be lacking the stability to pump a power wing. You might get away in wing foil where you do have something to hold on. Yeah. And then it's not only you. It's people with a, yeah, everybody. It's less performance, maybe less knowledge about how to pump a ball, how to pump a wing. Exactly.

[00:32:43] And I think with power wing, it's so critical to have something that is forgiving in the way it rolls downwind or up. And that when that happens, it doesn't catch or track. Because if it does, I'm going down instantly. If I have something that's forgiving that I can roll and adjust, then you're getting up.

[00:33:08] Because it's always that right when you're about to get the energy and get up, the thing grabs or tracks. And you're just like, ah, you fall. At least that's me. What do you think about double concaves in the nose? Like a V? I like V. I don't particularly like a deep double in the nose. I like a deeper double through where I'm standing. Me too. Because I think that's exactly what you said.

[00:33:36] They touch down and they tend to drag into one direction. Yeah. Yeah. So, again, I'm trying to make a bottom that – so from the Super K, the arc has a flatter displacement hull, I call it. So, it's flatter. It's still displacement, but it's more subtle. And then it has a double concave through your stance. It has a little V in the nose just for glancing off, I guess.

[00:34:04] And then so now I can start playing with how much displacement or how much flat I have to get different effects. And so in the future, you know, I might put a little more displacement to get the board planing quick, but then kind of run into a little flatter, you know, different things. Well, that's losing stability again, probably. Yep. You lose stability, but you gain getting up quicker. Yeah. So, if it's more of a winging-oriented board, then I can put those attributes in.

[00:34:32] If it's more pair-wing, then you put other attributes. Yeah, for sure. But, again, I'm trying to find something that I can balance. Say I'll work on a new Super K3 for any year or so. I think I would want, you know, as much stability as I can out of it, but in a shorter, narrower package.

[00:34:53] But yet I see that board as, like, a really good progression from Super K2 for winging in performance because I'm going to get more stability and glide and get up. But then it could also be for someone who's a better pair winger. They're really going to like that package because it's a little shorter, a little narrower, and, you know, a little more performant, but a little more difficult as someone who's learning or is intermediate like me.

[00:35:20] So, and, again, now I can develop new Super K3s being a little bit better at pair winging and still, you know, then I can still feel, oh, wow, it's more performant or, you know, I need a little more stability or whatever it is. So, it's a cool never-ending process of development, of feeling stuff, of bouncing off the team. You know, I'll do prototypes for a while and then I'll give it to Kane and have him try it and then he just tears it apart. Yeah.

[00:35:50] He's like, oh, in general, he's very positive. He's like, oh, man, this is amazing, but, you know, put an edge here, put a little more tail kick or whatever. So, I have a great system of people helping me and it's amazing. I was going to ask about Surf, but maybe we can go Arc first and then, like, one question I had was differentiating between the lines. It's always difficult for every brand to do, you know, how far to go in one particular area.

[00:36:18] I like the simplicity of the Drifter 5 line. I like the stability, the glide, the lift off and how it flies through the air. The Gensu 2 is an amazing board and it had more of a displaced mini haul and it's a really nice package. But I think you're going to get a lighter, more efficient board with the Drifter 5. You could always probably even, you could probably size down a little bit from what you're currently on.

[00:36:44] If it's not too much, I mean, if you're on a 40, okay, sure, you don't want to go, you know, for winging. But if you're in a range, you could probably size down a little bit with the Drifter 5. I think it has more stability. It's lighter because when we build in the Gensu step, you have to, you know, you have to compensate for that and build it a little stronger. So it's just an evolution. It's an evolution of rockers, of foam flow. So I feel like the Drifter 5 is a great package. It's a great way to go now.

[00:37:13] And then dive into the surf, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, I was kind of curious about the Drifter 5 as well, to be honest. Is that something brand new? The Drifter. So, yeah, those are amazing. You know, if you're going to prone, if you're not having to paddle out to a ka'a that's half, you know, a mile out or two miles out where a mid-length is kind of nice to have because it glides faster and gets you out there quicker and so on, less tired.

[00:37:36] If you have an area that's a little closer to just prone surf or if you're going to use, you know, foil drive, those boards are amazing because it's a little shorter, a little wider package, kind of more prone surf and, you know, foil drive oriented with the mass tracks a little further back, a little shorter mass tracks. And just everything kind of suited more for prone. And so, yeah, they're stable.

[00:38:05] They're really stable when you're trying to get up because when you're proning, you're trying to get up and you need, at least I do, I need a little minute to kind of gather myself before I just pop up. And so I felt like they have a good glide and a good glide when kind of trundling along in the water because when you're prone surfing, again, for me, I don't get up straight away.

[00:38:25] So I need a moment and you're pushing the board on the water and as you're getting, you know, so it's gliding on the water, but it's really efficient and there's a stability that comes from the board and obviously the foil that's really nice and makes it forgiving. And stable and gives you time to kind of gather yourself before you get up. So, yeah, really stoked. And as you go into the smaller sizes, they work well for wake.

[00:38:53] And then, you know, the smaller ones are good for dock starting, not specifically dock starting, but they work well enough. So there's a there's a broad range of use. And again, we were trying to to make this dripter line really broad in its uses, maybe a little bit more defined in the smaller size. But then as you go into the dripter, the bigger size, it's definitely kind of more winging oriented and, you know, intermediate and entry level as the sizing gets bigger.

[00:39:22] So trying to make it more simple for people and have like a program for people to kind of come in and get better and be able to sort of evolve. And that's that's cool. And, you know, again, we've been trying to figure out yesterday someone came in. He's a surfer. He's a friend of ours. Like, I want to learn a pair when you're like, OK, well, how do you do that? What's the best way to get someone from zero to pair winging? And that's a hard question.

[00:39:52] It's not an easy one. You have them. Do you have them go behind the boat? Do you have an e-foil? Do you have, you know, it's just like. Put them on a skateboard. Yeah. There you go. There's some there's some there's some work to do in that area to to have kind of an easy way to say, do this, this, this and this. And then you'll be pair winging. So, yeah, it's fun. Good times. Exciting times. You just mentioned a four drive. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Go ahead, Nico. No, go ahead.

[00:40:20] There's there's always some some people with a KT board and they have like this little cut. And is it working with a four drive? Can you put the four drive? You mean the Ginsu cut? Yeah. Yeah. You can. We have a shim that you can print off of our website that that can you put you can put on there and then it just levels everything out. So, yes, you can. And most of the boards are foil drive compatible and that we have a window in the nose so that signal goes through.

[00:40:48] And actually, we do have a foil drive trench board with the cover coming out in a month. That's been around a little bit. I didn't want to mention it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's kind of known people are waiting for it. So it's been. Lots of talk. It's been a priority. Yeah. It's been a process to produce it, making the cover. It's not an easy thing. So but I think people will be super stoked with the product. It works well. I know that.

[00:41:17] And the cover does make a difference. So, yeah, it's been a fun process to do that. And that's coming. I got a surf question for you, Keith, because our friend Henry that we were surfing with in Ecuador is looking for a surf line. So what foil, because you guys have a lot of new foils now, what foil would you recommend for prone? Foil. Yeah. Prone. It's a good question. Yeah. How good of a foiler is he? He is pretty good.

[00:41:44] Is he a really good foiler or is he just learning to prone? Yeah. No, he's a. He's advanced? Henry, this is a shout out for you, my friend. He's advanced. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. I would say then he'd want to be on the halo. The new halo is turnier, faster, but it has less low end. So you have to be a better foiler to access its niceness. So I would do, what is he way?

[00:42:10] I'd probably do an 800 halo with a 121 atom, which is our new back wing. And our new back wing is definitely, it's faster, but it's also surfier. So, yeah, halo 800 with a 121 back wing and a 56 fuse. And then a 77 apex mass. That's, that's the pinnacle. So there we go. The, yeah, the nomad's amazing.

[00:42:35] And, and for, if you want to do 10 for ones and, um, you know, have that low end grunt, that low end power, that low end ease, the nomad's beautiful. And that's what I would recommend. You could even do a nomad 830 with a one, I'd say probably one for one atom, um, or even a one, two, one atom and you're going to get a little more turns. So it's like, you almost need both. But if you're only going to get one and he's advanced, I say the halo and even like Logan who laps and pumps. Yeah. Get both.

[00:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. 800 halo. Then we're Logan. Who's, you know, a good boiler, a good downwinder. That's his preferred setup right now is the 800 with the one, two, one. So, and that he's pair winging that a lot. And then prone. Yeah. Is that 800 span or surface area? Don't ask me. Okay. I think it's surface area. Yeah. You got to ask Kane. He's more into that. Nico, do you have any other questions? Oh, for sure. Many.

[00:43:35] We could keep on going for ages. Go ahead. Okay. What's your, go ahead. What's your thought on a camber and reflex? Like, can you explain it to me real quick? Like what's. Yeah. Well, I think I understand camber because our foils have a shit ton of camber. Yeah. And that's, that's the curve on the bottom surface. Um, and that gives you crazy good low end, but there's other things that come with that.

[00:44:04] And that was Kane's, you know, work in figuring out the shimming in the tail to make sure it's balanced and that, that you're getting the most efficient glide to low end to speed. And I think he really hit it, hit it, hit it well on that foil. You know, when you first use a very cambered foil, it can feel a little powerful and a little bit strong feeling in the air. And you're like, wow, I'm not going that fast, but actually you are. Yeah. And so maybe the top. Yeah.

[00:44:33] A lot of people were feeling that and were like, well, don't be scared of it. It's just something that's just there that you get used to. And man, and that low end, it just, you can come out of anything. And I think for us as a brand and as a rider, those foils have really hit a spot that helped me get better quickly because I wasn't going down and like, you know, stalling out as much because of that low end.

[00:44:59] And it was, it was allowing me to be efficient and stay up and pump and learn to turn a cambered foil and all that and kind of understand that. And then as last year, Kane developed the new Solus, which is our kind of race wing oriented foil on it. It's something he had a more extreme race wing and he was using that and it was good. It was kind of hard to use. And so he developed this Solus to race in the gorge for some reason, more short period.

[00:45:26] He wanted, I don't know, more glide or more speed, whatever he did. And then he realized that actually as a, as a race foil, it was fast enough, but really good in the, in the, in the mid range where you kind of stay a lot. And so he shifted directions and put all his energy into the Solus, which has reflex, which is on the top surface, the curve. And so as he started playing with this, he was also playing with the new halo, which has

[00:45:56] reflex. It's no, actually, I think it has just, it has camber, but less camber and, and, and a foil section that's a little different. So out of the halo, he's getting more speed, um, and less of that low end, but more glide and less of that grunty feeling that you're always feeling and, and, and more swoop. But the Solus is reflex. And, and that's something that's been, um, really people are really loving it because

[00:46:23] it's really accessible, uh, and they're, they're mid to high range speeds are better and their overall times are getting way better. And so he really hit it with the Solus, you know, paired with the apex mast. And then I've been using the Solus with, with a turny tail because I like a little bit of ease and turning, but with the, um, with the, the tail that comes with the, the Solus, um,

[00:46:48] I forget the name again, but that, that tail pairs so well and they're riding pretty small tails and getting a lot of good speed and a lot of good mid to high end range. I mean, he, he won the overall last year. Um, you know, all the guys using it now are just ripping. He's, he just had the highest top speed and lap speed just last couple of weeks. So, you know, the foil performs and, and, and it's been a bit of a mission getting it

[00:47:15] into production and we've had our issues, but now it's starting to flow out and we're getting, getting some stock and getting it out there and people are, the feedback's been really, really good. So, and then, you know, race season's coming up here in a couple of weeks. So we'll see how everybody performs. It's exciting. It is. It is. Yeah. I stole a set, not stole, but I took from Ryan Arzi last fall in, in, uh, Saint-Tropez. And I think he was on some sort of a prototype might've been the Solus.

[00:47:44] It had a good amount of reflex and it felt different. It was like, yeah, it was very soft, not very much feedback on the front foot, but once you get it to speed and you pump it, the first pumps I pushed it too hard. I was like pushing it. Like, yeah. Yeah. Then it, it, I almost pushed it through the water and I could feel like I'm, I'm, I'm not in the flow. But after like a couple of minutes, I got used to it. It was, it was the quickest pump I ever had.

[00:48:11] And I actually ended up going to Andrea, another foil drive guy, pumping next to him and saying to pump as fast as you can. And then I was like falling behind, pumping as fast as I can. And I was almost going double the speed and he was already on the fast foil. So it is different. It feels different, but it's super fast. It does. Slippier. I feel like also when you're coming up to swell, you can catch up swell and overtake it, which is important. You know, I think that's an important aspect of a foil.

[00:48:41] And then, um, Logan just got back on the 775 cause he's going to race. And he was saying the same thing, just coming from the other foils. He's, he was over pumping it and he's like, I gotta relax, kind of bring it up and then just, just use it. So that's super easy, super effortless to be honest. Yeah. It, it, it, it feels just super balanced. Pretty amazing. I know. And, um, yeah, super stoked. And actually as a winging foil, it works really well. And, and that's, what's so cool.

[00:49:11] I feel like about the solace is it's, it's a race wing that's accessible. And I think that you can develop race wings that maybe are better in certain aspects, but the accessibility is so important and it's not something we tried to do, but that just happened. And now it's something that's really important for any product that we bring out that, that it's accessible. You need to be able to sell the product, you know, but it, you know, obviously Kane wants to win and our team wants to win. So it's gotta be at that level as well.

[00:49:40] So finding that balance. And again, I think we got lucky on this one and, but I've, I really feel like Kane is a genius. It's, I feel so, so blessed to be able to work with him and is the way his mind works and the ideas. I mean, we're working on some prototypes now and I'm, I'm freaking, I'm blown away. It's every day I go and I try it because we can do prototyping here. You still want the people to buy the range right now.

[00:50:09] You're talking about the next range already. No, the range now is so spectacular, but I mean, you know, I'm feeling like a 10% difference in whatever, in speed to, to weight to all this. And so, and I'm starting to understand a little more and it's, it's really fun. I imagine. A lot learning. We're really blessed to be able to go out and try stuff every day. And, um, we're, we're actually able to prototype foils in house here. We make our own molds and all that.

[00:50:37] And so our development's really quick and, and, and we get to see, you know, see glimpses of what's to come. Yeah. What's cool about Kane is he's out there, like when I was there for two months, he was out there, like even a Friday afternoon, Friday evening, he was out trying something, trying something, trying something. And it's so cool to watch because it's like, and he's going out there with a specific purpose and it's awesome to see how teams work in that environment. So it's cool. Cause he's only going to come up with different ideas all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's, yeah, he lives and breathes foiling.

[00:51:08] So, you know, he has access to all sorts of CFD just, just by the connections he's made over the years and yeah, it's amazing. It's fun. So good process. He gives me great feedback on the boards. It's, it's, it's amazing. It's about the team for us. It's the team that really makes the whole thing work. I wouldn't want to do it just on my own. You know, it's no fun. It's fun.

[00:51:32] The team interaction, the feedback, the criticism, the, you know, the great stuff, all of it. It's just makes it all worth it. And Kane's story is a little bit unique, right? Like how we started with you guys, cause his designs were, were kind of ready, but it took a little while to make that connection, right? Yeah, it did. I mean, he was working for other brands, doing different projects for other brands. He was doing tail wings, you know, selling them off the internet and all that.

[00:51:59] And then, um, there just kind of came a time when Francisco said, Hey, we should maybe talk to Kane. And we have our friend Georg, who's, you know, a fan of ours. And he's like, you guys really got to work with Kane. And I had known Kane and his parents for quite a while, quite a while. I mean, his parents for a long time. I didn't know Kane well, but I realized he was in the industry and, um, we just kind of started meeting and he was at a point where he wanted to make a change and the timing just all worked out and, and it felt right.

[00:52:29] And it's, it's only gotten more and more solid and committed. And, you know, as we get to know each other and, you know, he's, he's starting to see the benefits of, of his work and, you know, financially and just getting more known. And so, you know, you start feeling that. He's a legend already. He is. Yeah. I think he's not that well known in Europe yet, but he's kind of. Oh, he is for sure. He is. Oh, that's good. Cool. That's good to hear. It's a pleasure to watch him. Can you see him somewhere?

[00:52:58] He's, he's got a very unique style. Really is. And at first I was a little put off by it, to be honest, you know, but I didn't understand him. And once I started to understand, I'm like, wow, it's amazing. What a genius. And he's such a humble, hardworking, happy, generous, just human being. And so it's, it's a real pleasure to work with him. I got some very positive feedback from Tarifa. I think he was, he was explaining the range. Yeah. A lot of people.

[00:53:27] The way he explains things. Yeah. A lot of people came back to me and said that that was pretty interesting. Yeah. You know, you can sit there and you can see when he's answering a question, he's thinking in his brain, like how to best explain this so people understand. So I learned, I learned, I learned so many things from him that trip. So, and I still do. I still call him up. Are you sure this is the right shim? Do I need to do this or this?

[00:53:57] And I'm like, we have a question. We're not, we're having a debate here at the shop. Should we be doing this or this? And it's like, oh yeah, well, so it's cool. Mastermind. Yeah. Yeah. Full on. What about yellow? You put up a new color. Yeah. Well, I think again, the Super K did so well for us and we just kind of wanted to freshen up the look. And so we added yellow this year just to bring in another color, another option. And yeah, we're doing well with it. It's great. It's fun. Yeah.

[00:54:25] You know, you can see we like colors. We like fun graphics. And yeah, I think that's part of our look and what we like to bring out and always trying to bring something new graphically. I think what's, what's cool about what we do too is, you know, our, our cycles run two years. So we're not, you know, making a Super K every year. So the product has a time to want people to get to know it.

[00:54:53] And if it's, you know, a good product to sell through it well and, and make it worth making these molds and the resale value, I think holds a little longer that way. And, you know, so I feel like a two year cycle. And then to be honest, to be able to change something to make it that much better in one year, I think is difficult. So, and what we like to do is kind of offset. So we have a Super K, you know, and then this year we came out with the arc and then

[00:55:22] next year we'll probably work on a new Super K or, you know, so there's always something every year coming out, but you know, the Super K last two years and I think people feel good about that. Adding a color was just a nice thing to refresh. I see. A lot of brands are actually bringing out new boards every year, but it's not a new board. It's just a new design. It's just a new paint job. New graphics. Maybe new graphics. It's a different tech pad, but the shape is still the same. So two years. Too much work. Yeah. I think too much work, too much.

[00:55:52] It's a waste of energy and resources for me, for our brand. We're not in a position to be able to just throw money at things and make it different like that. So we try and be smart, have good value for the board, you know, and make a product that's good, that lasts well. Like anybody, you have your issues here and there and it's not perfect. But we do our best. Thanks, Keith. You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah. I hope you guys have any other questions or not, but I think that was pretty good. So many.

[00:56:22] Yeah. We'll have to invite you back on, Keith. Yeah. No worries. I'd be stoked. All right. Cool. Let's set that up and we can do a V2. Thanks, guys. I have a new board to test today. Oh, yeah. It's always fun. See you guys. All right. Cheers. Bye, everybody. Hey, everyone. Thanks for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this episode. We'd love it if you could subscribe to our YouTube channel, Instagram, TikTok to help our show grow. We put out some really cool content there. So it'd be awesome if you could do that for us.

[00:56:53] If you have any questions, comments, or if you would like to hear a particular guest, or if there was a cool company you wanted us to talk to, please send us a DM and we will do our best to organize a chat. Thanks again for tuning in. We hope you have a nice day. See you in the next one.