Episode #32 - George Hradil

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Wing Life Podcast, where we talk about wing-foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy this great sport. Hey George, thanks a lot for joining me. Hey my pleasure. Nice, it was great to meet you at AWSI. How did that show go for you guys?

[00:00:24] Oh, you know, I think pretty well. It's amazing to see how the industry's grown. You know, when I started my business, there were virtually no hydrofoil companies that all I think lived was just going starting. And they were maybe like three French companies that were offering foils.

[00:00:46] This would be over 10 years ago now. And, you know, now, like so you couldn't buy foil. Like if you wanted, you could buy a lift or you could order a French foil and send money over there at Waittruck couple of months and it would show up eventually.

[00:01:07] But yeah, so I decided at that time, you know, I mean, we shouldn't have to wait months to get one of these things or I now make one here. And I've always been interested in aviation and heights and boats and sailing and wind powering, a trained engineer.

[00:01:29] So I had a good background for that. Even as a kid, I always really enjoyed making things, taking things apart. It's just that kind of person, I guess. Yeah, so to see AWSI where, you know, every brand now has a hydrofoil.

[00:01:45] I mean, there used to be hydrofoil brands. But now if you make a kite or you make a wing, then you also make a hydrofoil, right? So there's hydrofoil, like access and Armstrong just, well, I guess Armstrong's making boards and wings now as well.

[00:02:04] But now, you know, even companies that have made kites in the past now have foil, sorry. So I mean, it's unabat. I mean, what would you say they were 20 foil brands there? Possibly. Yeah, and every other one there. Yeah, that's true actually.

[00:02:26] Yeah, so in a way, since I got into this pretty early and I feel like there's been a lot of aspects of it that I pioneered that have sort of now become pretty normal in that space.

[00:02:41] In a way, I felt kind of like man, I'm getting run over the hay. There's just so much competition and the quality of the foils has come up. Even at last years at WSI, there were some foils which like I looked at, you know, could feel so superior.

[00:03:00] Like, oh, god, look at that. You know, and this year, I mean, everything, like I didn't see a single foil will look bad. You know, that every quality has come up, a construction and people have really started to figure out what makes these things take.

[00:03:21] Yeah, I didn't get to ride that many. I mean, I was an exhibitor. I would have liked to try like a lot of the foils there, but it's not for exhibitors to try this stuff. It's for retailers to try this stuff, you know.

[00:03:33] I'm not going to want to up to my competitor. Hey, like, you know, try here. Like, I probably wouldn't go. But yeah, I mean, I saw some amazing things there. So, you know, in some ways, I felt like,

[00:03:48] Oh, man, this is getting to be a really competitive space. In another way, I was kind of heartened to see that the quality of the hydrophores that are being offered coming up to what they need to be. And I think really the catalyst for it all is winging.

[00:04:07] Yeah, the first seven years of my business was exclusively for kite foil applications. And yeah, initially exclusively just for racing. That's what I was into. Yeah, it wasn't a high level competitor by any means.

[00:04:27] But we had a great group of people starting in the early days that, you know, competed in Florida, and we went to what got a Puerto Rico. It was the same group of 15 guys and where was had a great time. And I don't know, everyone got good.

[00:04:44] And that's what racing does for you. Like, if you want to really jump start building your skills, like racing will do that. But it will also humble you tremendously. Can imagine, especially if you're racing against people that, you know, have a really freaking good.

[00:05:04] But in a way, I think that humbling experience helped me kind of help me figure out, you know, what my goals are, what my expectations could be. And I'm feel really privileged that I was able to get into foiling right at the beginning.

[00:05:22] And I always saw the potential, I mean, I saw it. I saw it for the first time on videos on YouTube. And when I saw it, I said, like, that is it. That is the thing. And back then no one was doing it.

[00:05:38] Like it was a crazy, it looked like a circus act or something, you know? But then it's, it's come to fruition. It's one of the few things that I've been right about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

[00:05:55] Can we talk about it a little bit about the early days that we were talking about before we came on on the reporting? Yeah, yeah, but it has hydrophilies got a really interesting history. Like even back in the 50s there was hydrophilal water skiing.

[00:06:11] And these were kind of like contractions. But they actually literally have water skis that were sort of bolted together. So it weren't intended. But then underneath they had these big B-4ildes. I mean, they were very difficult to ride it.

[00:06:25] But people riding them in the 50s and you could buy a kit and build these things. So it's not an entirely new idea. And then the first time I really saw it was this thing.

[00:06:39] I think I saw it a boat show, the air chair, this guy Matt Murphy. And there were some other guys. And he had invented this water ski hydrophilal. It was like a board with a lot of rocker that had an aluminum foil under it, which is very,

[00:06:57] very low aspect ratio. Nothing great there. And then it had a pedestal that you sat on and that you were seat belted to the pedestal and your feet went into bindings at the front of the board. And the thing was heavy.

[00:07:13] So when you wore a life jacket, you kind of floated like ready to go. It was under you, you floated above it. You were lined up. You know the boat could give it the gas and you'd come up and now you were falling.

[00:07:27] And because of the way that you were strapped in and your feet were in, just by lowering or raising your hands, you could lower or raise the foil. But those guys, I think became pretty popular for water skiing.

[00:07:46] And they were doing flips and jumps jumping wake to wake. It was amazing. I mean, I never, I wasn't a water skier. I didn't want to do that. But it really planted the seat in my mind of potential of it.

[00:08:03] And then I think the next time I saw it, were videos of Laird Hamilton and Rush Randall and Hawaii. And they were throwing in big waves. Those guys, what they wanted to do. They were using snowboard boots with clip and bindings. And they had to sand.

[00:08:27] And then they had like a leash between the bindings. So you could pull so that you didn't drown. You could free your feet. And then you'd only be in the surf in Hawaii with giant waves coming.

[00:08:40] And then you'd only be in the surf in Hawaii with snowboard boots on. So it's not a good idea. And the foil, I think Rush Randall had the foil that he was selling. It was all aluminum super heavy. And I said the like yeah, that's interesting.

[00:08:56] But this idea that your feet had to be like that rigidly planted was really like a turn off. It made me think that the hydrophil really wouldn't be controlful. Short of having boots like that or short of being strapped into the air chair.

[00:09:15] Like it was, you know, it didn't seem like it was rightable. And then I saw a video on YouTube and this was just when YouTube was starting. And it was this guy Mark Block, he was a Frenchman. And this frickin guy was riding a piece of wood.

[00:09:34] Like literally a piece of wood that you'd buy at home be bow. It wasn't like maybe three feet long 18 inches wide or whatever. And it had a hydrophil strapped under it.

[00:09:45] And he even had like a diagonal piece of wood to stiffen the strut to the board that went to one side. And he was riding a strapless. No straps at all. Like there weren't any straps on the board.

[00:09:58] He was riding a tiny little this episode is brought to you by Saladida Kiteschool in Laventana, Mexico. If you caught some of our stories yesterday on Instagram, you'll have seen that. I just got in a couple epic days of Dan Winding.

[00:10:12] We got a 10 kilometer Dan Winder done with my buddy Mickey from Salt Spring Island. Today I got in an epic one with my friend Britt. We went from Latuna all the way to the beach and back. Heck of a fun time.

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[00:11:26] Like dough in 360 to return, and his size, and as soon as I saw someone riding it, it's strapless. I said, this is it. This can work. This does work. Right. And there was a guy called Mango Mani who had a company called Caratino.

[00:11:45] And I think he was probably the first guy that was selling carbon foils with like a twin tip type board on top. Made in Asia, and they were reasonably priced. They're like a thousand bucks. I ordered one. You know? And the weight was long.

[00:12:04] Like your money was gone, and you were waiting for this thing to show up. But he had a lot of business problems, like delivery problems, quality problems. He saved like a good guy. And he was without a doubt, a pioneer. Like one of the first guys out there.

[00:12:21] So finally this thing comes and I've been kiteboarding for a while. That was pretty extregence kite boarder. And I'm trying to learn how to ride this thing with the footsteps. I got my feet jammed, and my ankles were just getting twisted. You know, you're used to it.

[00:12:38] Like a skatey thing, like a twin tip or a surfboard. And now this thing's just planted in the water. It doesn't slide, you know? It just wants to go one direction. And like after a couple of sessions.

[00:12:54] So you know, like falling too little word with the foil coming up at you, the whole show. Oh yes, yeah, yeah. I put it away. It was in my garage for another three years.

[00:13:06] And I don't know what maybe I saw some more videos of people riding or something. I don't exactly recall, but at some point I took it out of the garage. I'm going to ride this thing. And I took the straps off and I learned to ride it.

[00:13:21] Strapless, which I think was a good move. Because you really need to be lined up with the foil as you know. Like you can't use your ankles to muscle the foil back into a line bit. That doesn't work.

[00:13:35] So I learned to ride that foil and I was riding it. People were freaking out like, you know, people at the beach were winging out. They did not know what they were looking at. It had only been like 10 years ago because I got into citing very early in 99.

[00:13:56] And flying two line cites. Yeah, I was going to say two lines. Yeah, I had the wip of five meter that I bought from Hawaiian Pro line. That's all you could get. I had the 3.5 meter and the five meter.

[00:14:10] And I think they had a seven and a half for a high in which the word on the street was it wasn't good. But it people were freaking out when I started with that. But they thought I was an idiot.

[00:14:23] Actually there was one guy came up to me and he says, Yeah, you know, we used to watch you and we laughed at him. We thought you were so stupid. And I can't believe you actually made it work. That's great. So they're like, well yeah, thanks.

[00:14:40] You know what? But yeah, with the hydrophobic. And literally there was, and the thing is that it worked in such like wind. Right? Let's go out. 10 miles an hour. It's height-foyling works great. And literally I came, I'd ride in the evening. I had super smooth wind.

[00:14:59] I came back to the beach and there were like 10 people on the beach that gave me an ovation. And that was. And then I said, all right, I'm going to step it up. So I purchased a spot's one raised foil from France. Oh, well.

[00:15:18] So I was like, well, I think it's a really cool thing came and compared to the carapeno, this thing was beautiful. Well, streamlined and the carapeno was pretty chunky and the quality was not great. But you saw it. I've been so it was fine.

[00:15:32] No, I sold it to a buddy. And he sold it to somebody else. Like it hadn't. It was like owning a vescuscuter, right? Like it's kind of, you know, you just pass it onto the next guy. No, and the build quality on it was pretty cool.

[00:15:49] It kind of started. The board started. Did you have any? I'm a part of it. Yeah, so I got this French foil and I thought, I had been hydrofoiling for a year on the Carapeno. I thought, well, you know, I'm just going to go and ride this thing.

[00:16:05] And that thing is really hard to ride. That was like learning all over again. I could ride it just barely on pork tack. And on the other side, I couldn't ride it. Like that was a level like on my dominant side.

[00:16:19] I could just barely ride it and on the other side. And then eventually I figured it out and I could ride it around. I started racing on it. I met Damien La Roy and John Mottica and Nicolese and down at the first Reggarde Port Rico.

[00:16:37] No, no, at the point I had already built a foil. So I brought my own soil and I brought the spots one. And yeah, I got totally humbled in Puerto Rico with super windy, super choppy. And I was trying to ride strapless because you know, I'm so cool.

[00:16:58] And I couldn't get to the wind. I just think that's lost is pummeled, you know? And Damien and John, like they figured it out right away. Riding lich-shel, sir. The Toro assort which was another French brand. There was basically the spots in the Toro assort.

[00:17:18] That were the dominant choice at that time. And they were like for the time. Like you could race on them, you know? But then things changed. Like the spots too came out. That was super dominant. Everyone raised on that. And I was like building foils and selling some,

[00:17:38] but truth be told they weren't great. I mean, they were pretty bad. But all the foils at that point were not that great. The spots too was kind of a breakthrough foil. It was the first foil that had the thing where the wings kind of went up

[00:17:56] and then came down. So it looked a little bit like a sea gulp. And then I was an engineer. And I knew like for minimum drag and maximum efficiency, you really wanted a perfectly straight wing, you know? And I just kept trying to do that.

[00:18:12] And it's really unstable for it. And even now, you'll never see a perfectly straight wing. No one offers one. And there's a reason they suck. Yeah, they don't work. So that's the first thing I had to learn. I was very stubborn.

[00:18:28] And so this part too was super dominant. And then my exact check in San Francisco started to design foils and, he really nailed it. What he really understood was that the foil needed to be extremely stiff. Because if it wasn't super stiff, what happened when you're going fast,

[00:18:52] it starts to the board and the wing just aren't connected in a solid way. So the foil starts to do things that you didn't tell it to do on its own, just due to flexure.

[00:19:05] And then you're like trying to catch up to it and make it do things. And he also was the one that came up with the mass connection that a lot of people are adopting. That F1 is using a number of other foils.

[00:19:20] Use it where it kind of clamps onto a channel at the top of the fuselage. Instead of going into a cavity, which was the other way of doing it, and that creates a pre-solid connection. So I have a tremendous amount of regard for Mike and Stefano.

[00:19:39] I think Stefano is underappreciated. They keep from, you know, he contributed tremendously to the success Mike's lab. Mike's lab just became entirely dominant in the race scene. That's kind of when I had to get out of it because I...

[00:20:00] You know, it was able to design something that was close to the performance of Mike's lab, but he kept improving the freaking thing and... You know, and he had the benefit of having two people to collaborate where I was kind of on my own.

[00:20:16] And also he was in the right place. He had the top rider right there as backyard testing for. So then I had to switch gears. When I first got into building hydro foils,

[00:20:29] I had like certain goals that I wanted to do, and they were things that I absolutely didn't want to do. I only wanted to make race gear. I only wanted to use carbon fiber. I don't want to use any aluminum.

[00:20:43] And I wanted to make it in the United States and not use Chinese manufacturing. I've done, and I didn't want to make recreational foils. Everything that I said that I didn't want to do, I have now done. You know, just goes to show. Well, yeah, it's not easy.

[00:21:06] No, I think that was just a lot of learning I had to do. Okay. And you know, those lessons from doing the race foils, I think benefited me so much when I changed focus to doing more recreational stuff.

[00:21:25] So initially I was just doing more recreational kite foiling stuff. And then I started to get into the surf side of things. Just about the time that Alex and Garrett came out with the goals, what kind of exploded that. Okay.

[00:21:46] But it was funny because I think Alex did a really great job with the Go foiling. It was definitely a pioneer. No one, I mean actually Damien La Roy was stay caked that foiling surf foiling might work.

[00:22:01] But because there were no foils that were specifically designed for it. It was kind of a hard thing. The wings were too small, you know, you don't really need very big wings for kite foiling. No, right.

[00:22:15] And Alex came up with the system that really worked in the conditions in Hawaii. He had kind of a very thick way. And I looked at it and said like, it's not logical. It's not really efficient. You don't need a way that thick.

[00:22:33] But what was amazing is that everyone exactly copied it, like blindly. Like Alex has got to have the thick way it's working. That's something that works. And I was working with John Bautica at the time.

[00:22:46] And I said like, now I think it should be thin and they just say, everyone's gone think to it. Maybe you need the drag to keep you on the wig. If we need more drag, I'll just build a bigger wing and you'll have more drag

[00:23:00] and you'll have more lift that will be good, right? And you know eventually it took three or four years, but eventually people abandoned the thick wing for a while was all.

[00:23:12] And I'm sure that when Alex designed it that it was the right thing for the local conditions that he had and for the skill level that the riders were at that time. Now things have changed dramatically, you know? I think I don't know.

[00:23:31] I had been scrolling around with really high aspect ratio winks as well. And even people that tried to say like, no this is just too hard to control, but the glide is unbelievable. And I think signature or one of those South African foils,

[00:23:52] I'm not sure if it was signature or your foil at first ones. Really clapped open the market high aspect ratio winks that they just showed everyone that that's going to work. And now they'd be look.

[00:24:09] Look at the wings that are being offered by accidents, by modes of the spy arm shop. Really high aspect. Yeah absolutely. Yeah of course I've gone that way too. That I had already been doing it, but the thing is with that when wing foil like hit,

[00:24:30] you know you need it to offer much bigger winks and fighting. We already offered a 1500 which is, but it's funny like so we had these bigger wings, but for wing-coiling initially they weren't big enough because wing-coiling at that time required a huge wing.

[00:24:50] And it's funny you make all these things go hand in hand. There's a reason for all of it. And the early hand wings that we were using and my favorite at the time was the F1 swing. I was awesome. It was the lightest, simplest thing.

[00:25:08] I mean it was the best wing at that time. For sure in my eyes. Very easy to handle. I really like how light it was. But none of these things was stiff. So when you were trying to pop up you know you're popping it.

[00:25:23] And yeah sort of the strut with the handles is going in and out but the things also go on like this. So you can really develop a lot of thrust by popping at that time.

[00:25:35] So you really needed a lot more height before because and we were as good at it. Now it's brand there. You know even now yeah even now I see one of the things that beginners typically do, but they can't get on for them.

[00:25:51] They have really to struggle to get on foil. You know an experienced rider on half the size of wing and a smaller hand wing than a beginner is on will pump up on the foil.

[00:26:04] But if you're going to just stand there holding the wing, waiting for the wind to put them on foil. Exactly. It takes a lot of wind to do that. You know yeah. I mean if you have enough wind to do that you're super lit. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:25] You're almost ready to go down to a smaller wing at that point. Yeah absolutely. Right. But beginners have this thing but now subsequently what's happened and a lot of it is these better materials like a lula, I'm a big fan. Yeah the cost is high.

[00:26:44] It's not like if you're a kid in college or you know don't have you have bills to pay. You've got a family spending $2,000 on one hand wing may not be what you want but they're damn good at it. I'm a big fan.

[00:27:02] I think Ocean Rodeo is crushing it like for such a small brand. There's a generator on the material side. I think there wings of gray you know and now that's the other thing at AWS I who didn't

[00:27:17] in the lula or equivalent type material wing everyone that's a thing everybody's innovating. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people follow I think I think Ocean Rodeo innovated better put. Better put absolutely. Yeah. I think actually the amount of innovations kind of small you know.

[00:27:36] That's like the the next big thing at AWS I right now on the sport the biggest thing downwind paddle foiling. And now it works. Well, we develop the narrow board. There's people don't even know now but it was David Klaw or unless there was somebody else

[00:27:56] in Hawaii that was the predecessor of David inspired Dave but Dave certainly seem to be the first one to put that out there in you know on a bigger to a bigger audience to make it aware that as a possibility.

[00:28:14] And I'm a big fan of that not so much that I feel like that is something I want to do because I don't think conditions in my area or that could do so to it. And also the logistics of finishing somewhere where you did start.

[00:28:33] Also I think you know for someone my age it would be more difficult just due to the physical demands of what that is. Oh yeah, it's not easy. Not at all.

[00:28:48] But I think that that type of board is ideal for beginning to win for beginners because I had an experience with a guy that bought a set up from a very well known manufacturer here locally.

[00:29:06] And it was the board must have been 28 inches wide, six feet long and then a big ass, hydrophil, 1800, 2200 way, he had 1800 way. And he was doing well but he was quite Natalie you know. He was like an expert skier, did ski patrol. So he was had the skills.

[00:29:33] So he was doing okay but was kind of struggling with the driving and needed a lot of power. He was interested in Delta. I had met him and I said hey look you know I have a 12 company maybe she trails out quite help you.

[00:29:47] And he said yeah I want to try let's let's switch when we're out there. So there finally the day came I was out. And I was on my 700 square centimeter raceway which we have at stock now.

[00:30:01] At that time it was a prototype but we put it in a production we had. And you know, race strut 100 centimeters long and he was on this beginner setup. So we switched.

[00:30:17] I was on a four meter he was on a five meter he was foiling I was foiling. So we switched forwards out in the middle and I wasn't expecting much I thought like this is a smaller way.

[00:30:29] Like this is literally a third of the size of what he's right what he's used to. Right this freaking guy gets right up on four else sales away.

[00:30:39] Jives comes pack doesn't another job like for him no it was like an enabling moment like his gear was keeping him back. Like was killing him literally he was ready to step it up and he had this gear.

[00:31:00] Meanwhile so I'm still super stoked to see that he's enjoying himself he's not crashing he's not wrecking my stuff you know.

[00:31:09] So I bought his gear on a four meter I can't get up on four no freaking way I could get up on four on my 700 I can't get up on four on his 1800.

[00:31:21] The amount of drag off of that board this six foot by 28 inch board right and this is one of these boards where they moved everything forward the tracks are forward every so you're kind of in the middle of the board.

[00:31:38] You're not on the tail you can't pop it with your legs as efficiently right because you can't pivot like you're in the middle.

[00:31:48] You're like it's just I mean and it was so frustrating you know what it's like not to be able to get up on four when you want to be on four and it was windy right that's like.

[00:32:01] My buddy had an early version of the slingshot I can't remember what it was called but it was a long board during the center.

[00:32:08] I need a lot of power to get it up but as soon as I got it up I couldn't point because it would just want to turn like I was on a top because the foil so far forward.

[00:32:17] Is terrible is same kind of feeling but I couldn't get it to do anything that I wanted it to do I was he was easier on my 80 later. I think I had the first version of the KT boards.

[00:32:28] I said you get up faster on this board than you do that board it was 150 and he tried it and it was a lot easier.

[00:32:36] Yeah so then we switch back and you know then I have to admit I struggled to get up on foil on my stuff too I was on a forward.

[00:32:44] And then he was like unfortunately has the habit of riding in the chopiest like least with the spot in our local area like I had to sail down to him in a place where I never sail because the winds lighter and the waters more messed up.

[00:33:03] But eventually when I worked my way out of it I was all set again and yeah he ordered a delta the next day and. He tells me mad I can't believe I wasted a whole summer riding that other gear I said like well get out.

[00:33:20] That's just the way it goes but what it made me realize is that maybe we're doing a great disservice to beginners because this is.

[00:33:29] And it's a type of package that is very commonly sold to be getting like oh you need a big foil because that'll make it easier to get up all you need a big board that'll make it easier to stand up.

[00:33:43] But and then generally you know I mean I'm not. A lot of times like depending on the manufacturer and I'm not going to name anyone that that's my pledge I'm not going to name names but. Reports possibly that setup is not very cheap at all.

[00:34:02] You know and then maybe you say a little bit of money by buying not such a great handwing that doesn't power up well. It's a terrible combination to learn them that I really believe that and it's making it harder for people.

[00:34:20] And I think that these downwind boards are really maybe the ideal solution. And I wouldn't go super narrow. I wouldn't do like 20 or 18 inches of like what if you did 22 inches or something you know 23 inches.

[00:34:36] But six feet six and a half feet seven feet whatever like now the thing you could develop actual board speed because the board goes through the water well. To get you to lift reasonably without having to be entirely lit out of your mind.

[00:34:56] And then I don't think you would necessarily grow out of a setup like that and I think the only downside is the cost. Like you know conventional if you're to buy a night you leader board or whatever that might be 1400 bucks 1200 bucks.

[00:35:15] And I think for one of these downwind boards well they're hard to get now it's probably the only thing that the industry isn't over inventory. Is that right, but I'm sure by next summer the lea plenty of them and hopefully the cost will go down but.

[00:35:35] One problem with them like if you have a board that's less than six feet. You could ship that by UPS or FedEx, but I think over certain length. Those carriers will take it anymore and I think these downwind boards are now over that dimensional way requirement.

[00:35:56] So I'm going to be expensive to ship. And it's going to add to the cost. So you take off quick. Well, yeah like the one that the great for beginner to take off quick right.

[00:36:11] Yeah, like I had one at the hatchery when I was down and I think it was the 90 liter was 19 wide from KT.

[00:36:17] Yeah, and I had a four meter wing that night and there wasn't a lot of breeze but as soon as I stepped on it art there was current there and a bit of stuff it already started to take off and was like, whoa. Yeah, okay.

[00:36:31] All right, so I got to imagine if you were on something that was six feet long and 28 inches wide or 30 inches wide that wouldn't you wouldn't have come up on well.

[00:36:40] Yeah, and then on some of those boards that are just Planx applied with no shape in their super sticky. Yeah, and especially when the foil like the early foils I found like I hopped on an arm strong pretty early.

[00:36:54] I was laying short V1, I think the sling shots to the arm strong and then it was insane that the step up in the difference from there. But I wrote another buddies well that had it was just like I was riding in molasses.

[00:37:09] I couldn't move the thing and it would get up it took forever to get it out of the water. I was struggling to get it out as soon as it was up it would hit a wall at the boat.

[00:37:18] 15 miles an hour or something and then they would that was it. That was all I could do and I was like, I can't move this thing give me back this slippery little peat that I have from arm strong.

[00:37:28] It takes off faster it glides it serves it does all these things. Yep, and that's when I started to see the differences in everybody and how much tech has involved and all of that stuff. Yeah, but you know, that's the kind of gear that typically gets salty beginners.

[00:37:44] Yeah, it is. That's what I'm saying. Typically what they get is an economical wing which I mean and there are some wings that are good that don't you know that are in the thousand nine hundred dollar price range.

[00:37:59] They're nice and stiff but I think the Cobra in a mantis would be one that yeah, I think it's considered. But you know, if you get a floppy wing with a huge board and a huge foil.

[00:38:14] Good luck like I have seen beginners here like when I was kite foiling no one would come like no one wanted to get a kite foiling. It looked too crazy, too dangerous and possible. It just didn't look like something that people thought they could do, right.

[00:38:34] The weight foiling comes along and it's viewed an entirely different light. People see it and they see themselves being able to do it. And we have people new people showing up at my beach all the time and a lot of beginners and I'll say this.

[00:38:56] If they stick with it, they learn to do it. But it could be a year. Could be long takes some time. Yeah, where abouts are you? I'm on an arrogance of pain Rhode Island. I live right near the town beach so I can just walk down.

[00:39:16] It's about a couple hundred meters and I've gotten out to shower set out. So it's ideal. I look and see the windier not windy if it's windy. I just grab my shit, go down, get in an hour or two, come back, take a shower up up here.

[00:39:32] It's all beautiful. Oh nice. Good testing zone then because you get on the water. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And you know the wind. Oh typically we get a lot of 10 to 12 mile an hour days which are great for kiteing.

[00:39:49] I wouldn't say that it's ideal for winging but other times the sea breeze will come in at 18, 20 miles an hour and that's great for winging.

[00:39:58] And yeah, you know some of the new wings with the better materials like a 6.5 meter wing now can really get you going in 12 miles an hour pretty well. And then pretty much only ride the 700 wing and I find that works pretty well even like winter.

[00:40:20] Yeah, we've got one sea pot. Oh, wow. Oh, no. And even when I put that my friends you know that intermediate rider that was riding that beginner stuff the 700 it didn't. It's not hard to ride. I haven't here. Let me see if I can ride that.

[00:40:41] Yeah, let's take a look at the idea of because a lot of people have sort of a wrong idea about this kind of way. So it's it's aspect ratio is 11 and this is my daily driver. And I think anyone can ride this as long as they have power.

[00:41:05] Everyone thinks oh, high aspect wings it's going to be pitchy. It's going to be hard to control it.

[00:41:10] It's not it could be if the weight is poorly designed but if the wing is properly designed and properly manufactured there's nothing about a high aspect wing that it technically makes it hard to ride.

[00:41:26] It is true that you know, as you change the pitch of a high aspect wing the lift changes more rapidly that it would on a low aspect wing.

[00:41:38] But I don't think that that really makes it hard to ride and my progression, you know, three years ago I would have told you a 1450.

[00:41:52] But that's the perfect science for everyone and then you know people around me kind of pushed like they started riding smaller wings that we have a racing scene.

[00:42:05] Bristol yoc club hosts a series for us a couple of regarded so we have about seven eight people locally that want to race and also some people that traveled from Massachusetts and stuff like that it's a great group of people.

[00:42:21] And then you know, then I dropped down from the 1450 to the 1280 and that wasn't bad and then I dropped to town to the 1050 which was a high aspect wing and that felt fine and then the 850 and then like when I went to the 700 I wasn't sure so it's like is this really go am I got really be able to get up on for you.

[00:42:45] Yeah, it's all I ride now really. I don't like keep a lot of wings around I you know if I have wings around people tend to buy them and that they're raw yeah and so pretty much the 700 is all I have around I have a 1740 and.

[00:43:05] I have a huge flat water pump forling wing which is an introduction I don't think we'll put it into production but it's 1.6 meters span it's about 2,000 square centimeters and I use that on a 60 centimeters strut just for flat water pumping like what the.

[00:43:27] What dev然 man's the wake thief guy that kind of stuff and I've been doing that this summer and learning how to do it in the beginning I could like maybe go 50 feet and then I topple over.

[00:43:42] It's a skill it's you know it's it does I think it's helped my fitness a lot and it's a great thing to do with a no end. Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:53] Do you find your progression from that 14 down to the 7 is it skill is it everything step was a evolution it was it the. I don't know. You know the wing design was always pretty similar I was used the same airfoil section so like if you cut the wing.

[00:44:17] I think it's a great thing to do with the work in particular the shape that you would see when you cut it the cross section of the wing. That I kind of use the same one for every wing so that doesn't change and.

[00:44:32] Get smaller which is logical because I can't make an aspect ratio 11 14 50 because this wingspan would be enormous right.

[00:44:45] So like a 14 50 off the top of my head I don't know what the aspect ratio is but maybe it's like seven or eight so the 17 40 the 14 50 of the 12 80 in our line which are called high aspect wing.

[00:45:03] I think now we'd call them more bid aspect but you know they're all the same aspect ratio they're just kind of scaled down versions of each other. And then when you drop down to the 10 50 and the 8 50 those have higher aspect ratios maybe those are something like that.

[00:45:27] I have the 8 50 here so the 8 50 looks something like that I got to get it in the frame exactly yeah that's pretty good we can see it yeah. It's it's all sort of like your image I'm confused by it.

[00:45:47] And then you know when you drop down to the 700 then it jumps to the next aspect ratio like a 50 and the 10 50 already pre high aspect ratio wings. But I think it's logical to make I think it's necessary to make your higher area wings lower aspect ratio.

[00:46:08] Because I find that when the span of a wing gets much over 100 centimeters they become harder control harder to turn less maneuverable. You know so I was never like a huge fan of wings that had 115 centimeters span.

[00:46:30] Okay, of course I'm riding a wing that has 1.6 meters span now for a very particular but I can tell you that it is hard to ride it's very locked in roll and.

[00:46:43] I try and it's also hard to have a strut system that's stiff enough to support a week that big.

[00:46:51] But the offering is stiff enough but at 85 centimeters that wing was very very difficult to ride and when I shortened the mass down to 65 or 60 it became pretty decent to ride so. A shorter mast is also pretty instrumental at matching larger wings easier to.

[00:47:14] Because I tried the new 1650 from Armstrong their pump foil was a lot of windmines you I can't remember the tail that he had on there my buddy had that was an omen board.

[00:47:25] I just found it was more wind but I just found it it was slow I didn't know if it was on purpose but I found it it was slow it went up wing but I guess. That's the only one I had written a dot time.

[00:47:40] Why we just found it right here right away left it. It was just to try it out just to try it out for fun.

[00:47:46] It's a series you know there's two things so you know I studied a lot of wing design and wing theory and aerodynamics and so much has been done for airplanes in the 20th century.

[00:48:05] If you think about how rap of the development was that the Wright brothers first fluid what 93 or 106 something they hopped in the air for 36 seconds so that was 19. Yeah, oh six or something and then.

[00:48:23] So if you think that in 1969 we have a got a standing on the boat. That's a heck of a 65 for the rest of the year and we stuck in two world wars in a great depression. I imagine if things were going a little bit more smoothly.

[00:48:46] So and you know there's just so much work that's been done by the predecessor from NASA which was called NACO which was national aeronautic so something. And all these reports are published so.

[00:49:02] How airplane wings work is is very well understood and there's nothing new there's not much more advancement. Going to happen there and hydrophiles which is basically underwater airplanes more or less. There's some distinct differences but.

[00:49:22] So you know the smaller so the way it works is that the smaller of a wing that you have. The faster you have to go because if you think about it your weight is your weight.

[00:49:36] So if you weigh 160 pounds, the hundred and seventy pounds that's what the hydrophiles has to lift.

[00:49:43] Hydrophiles always has to provide your weight in lift otherwise you're going to either pop if it provides more you're going to come out of the water if it provides less you're going to come down.

[00:49:57] So whenever you're falling you know exactly how much lift the wing is producing it's you probably. And the amount of lift that a wing produces it's a very simple equation it's the left coefficient which is related to the echo tack.

[00:50:17] The surface area so it's a coefficient of lift times the surface area. Times the density of the fluid which is water that doesn't change. Times the velocity squared. So the velocity every single term in there it's multiplied only by once but with velocity it's multiplying twice by that.

[00:50:39] That's the velocity squared. So the amount of lift changes very rapidly as the speed changes, right? So in order to go fast you really need a small wing because then you know it because of that surface area term getting smaller.

[00:50:59] The velocity term has to get bigger and it's something that's referred to in aircraft design as wing loading. Okay, how many pounds per square foot of wing area do you have?

[00:51:13] And as your weight loading goes up your speed goes up you know and the only way to make a big wing go try to make a big wing go fast is to get that angle of attack really low. Which makes that coefficient of lift low.

[00:51:31] So that's you know another number but then when you're really riding nose down like that. The wing starts to become kind of squirrely and you have the drag of the size of that whole wing.

[00:51:43] So what's become very clear around here is that the smaller wing you ride the faster you go. And actually they don't ride that bad once you're up on foil.

[00:51:56] I think the only downside to riding small wings is getting up on foil like getting up on foil can start to become a problem. And because of this racing, yeah because of this racing thing people are now riding 540s, 520s. Waging.

[00:52:18] Oh well same size that we were using for kite for real racing basically yeah. And I have a 590 prototype which is basically the 700 scale down to 590. And I like it.

[00:52:33] Like as long as you're powered up, it's not that hard to get up on foil and I would ride the 590 when it's windy and got damaged fast. It would be rips. It would be. I wouldn't say it almost feels like an entirely different sport.

[00:52:51] Like if you compare riding a 1500 or 1450 versus riding a 700 or 590, it's more dynamic. It's a lot faster. It's, you know, it kind of makes it more like skiing almost like hmm. I think you're saying yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:14] And I think and I was shocked when I went to the court. So this is what's happening locally in my group of peers that people I like to ride with is that they're just pushing this and they've pushed me.

[00:53:28] Like without them, I wouldn't have probably designed a 700 or was taken longer. The guys from Cabrita like a Brendan Healy, an epinech also like started riding me small things. And I said like you can really ride these and they say yep, let's see only when I ride.

[00:53:46] And only ride the 590 or 600 is it really? And they said yeah. And of course they're very riders right. Yeah. And they're powered. I mean I wouldn't consider myself in thick special on the water.

[00:54:01] I ride a lot and you know, I have sort of average athletic skills not a short super athlete. But if you're at it long enough and you ride not. And I found like yeah, yeah, 700's fine by 90's fine.

[00:54:16] I did buy a race whil from a French company that well, it's AFS bought the 560 race foil. Oh, okay. Okay. I saw that thing and they like I was blown away about what by the construction like what they did was just so extraordinary really.

[00:54:37] So I said, I mean it just began it I just saw it's like I must have. So I thought and they they like rush it to meet from France and then the next day that they after I got it really freaking wid the out. Or the same.

[00:54:51] I have riding this thing. So I took it out. I was super lit on a four meter man that I struggled to get off the foil. I could not only like it was so and this is after having rid five 40s at five 90's.

[00:55:07] And this was the five 60 so it was a little bigger than the smallest I got bringing and I felt like I was pretty powered in the board was just skimming and I still I felt like no this wings not fast enough.

[00:55:19] And then I finally got up on it and it was really loose squirrely at low speed super squirrely. And then you know once you get it going 18 miles an hour 20 miles an hour it locks in and then it just super slippery.

[00:55:36] Like it's that as much power as you can put down it'll take it and build faster and faster faster particularly downwind. You get an kind of downwind and you just sheet an harder and harder each goes faster.

[00:55:52] And I didn't blow a job the entire session I didn't want to because I didn't want to face getting up on that freaking foil again.

[00:56:00] But you just roll into the job with speed and it holds speed so well because it's so low drag that you come out the other end real quick you just don't let it don't let it get slow that's all but.

[00:56:14] I just you know the first 20 minutes I said okay this just isn't for me maybe this is for people in your a pretty safe.

[00:56:22] I'm I'm going to go back and switch to by regular foil and call these guys say I made a bit and say you need to take this back before I hurt myself and give me my money.

[00:56:33] And then by the end of the hour and I was exhausted like my heart rate is up. It's like I mean it was with the rough you know. And by the end of the hour I was like pushing it around and enjoying it.

[00:56:48] I decided to keep it but. It's a tough foil that you do get to a point.

[00:56:55] Where is heart to ride or it is it is a challenge and you have to be up for it and I don't I don't think it's for most I don't think that for I would recommend that for all the most people some.

[00:57:07] Some people would enjoy it, but I think most people would not. I'm not sure that I would enjoy it honestly. It may be too much for me, but I thought I'd give it a shot to see if I could grow it to.

[00:57:20] But in terms of people are very reluctant to drop down to a wing even as small as an eight fifty. And I was saying don't be reluctant to ride 800 don't be reluctant to drive 700.

[00:57:37] They're they if they're well designed and I'm not saying I can't say that every manufacturer has well designed ways. It's clearly not a case many of them do some of them don't. You know I have. Some foil brands that I really respect and some that I don't.

[00:57:56] What would constitute to you well designed? I think an air foil section that really works well and that's not something that you can easily see when you look at a foil another thing that's really easy is. Is it stiff enough?

[00:58:18] I think the lower level of stiffness is required for wing foiling then for the kite foil racing where it was so crucial for control at high speed and.

[00:58:33] The speeds for what the speeds that people are doing now in kite foil racing are really pretty crazy it's like 26 27 miles an hour upwind downwind 30 40 miles an hour. It's not just absolutely nuts and to keep that under control it needs to be rock solid.

[00:58:55] You know right now it's like the chew bonga and the lebatons are kind of the two to four oh brands that are IK a certified. It's the whole racing scene is now sort of highly regulated it's an Olympic it's the parasol Olympics will have kite foil racing hit.

[00:59:16] When in in that class is aiming for the Olympics. You know the equipment needs to be registered and it needs to be IK approved and you know. It became and it's.

[00:59:34] It's tougher manufacturers and it and now really the only competitive cutty is the fly surfer BMG 2 so in a way it like brands are driven out there's there's not a lot of money.

[00:59:45] There's not a lot of money in serious racing you know because the people that everybody now this is absolutely not for everybody and the people that compete at a really high level get their stuff at a heavy discount. So who actually pays retail for it right.

[01:00:02] So yeah but no I would.

[01:00:07] I've had like that that guy that I talked about switching boards with he wrote the 700 straight off and when he was trying to make the buy and decision for a delta I said just get the age 50 so maybe I should get something bigger I was like just get the age 50 you know and he's entirely happy with it and then this should I get a bigger wing.

[01:00:33] So I said no get a really high quality 6.5 meter hand wing and use that for later with the okay so that's it you know.

[01:00:43] Yeah at the AWS I tried to silky 50 and I went out on a 60 liter apple tree board I believe and like I'm I'm still riding a bigger wing from Armstrong but. So I wanted to see how slow I could go with it.

[01:01:01] What kind of attack kind of like if you angle attack a little bit will it drop out of the year all those kind of tests it road phenomenally like I was very very impressed with their age 50 is beautiful.

[01:01:13] It wasn't at a control like I had thought and and the glide and everything it was a mid aspect it's there's their newer one their monoblock that they came out with and now I was I was very happy with it.

[01:01:25] Really I think if you tried to Delta 700 be shocked like me saying baby scene but this is what surprised me that when I was out at the gorge I saw like the local guys what they were riding.

[01:01:41] We're like it was a lot of Armstrong gear and big wings like these sort of mid aspect 1800s and they were pretty thick I mean really a high drag setup you know and that was extremely popular with fairly skilled riders honestly like.

[01:02:05] Good people that were solid on the water we're riding that and you know coming from this area where everyone is just going smaller smaller faster faster it. But definitely work with it like I was shocked like what are these people thinking.

[01:02:22] I think it comes down to just like a local flavor you know that could be if that's the gear that like wow I really respect 10 and Ted says that you know Armstrong is a way to go and they particularly have a very cult following me there.

[01:02:39] Yeah people that are loyal to them or loyal to that you know people that are loyal to access or loyal to access it's just. It's fascinating people that ride Delta are very loyal to Delta but there's our fewer of them.

[01:02:56] And that's something I'd like to change and I think the quality of the product is really good.

[01:03:02] Yeah so what what separates you or what makes Delta unique per se compared to some of these other brands yeah I do think that the wind designs are really like the best I mean there's not the in terms of designing this thing I don't really think that there's anything better.

[01:03:22] Can we there be things that are equal to it or close to it but there's nothing that really clips is it and I think also our wing line and our foil line is very simple and.

[01:03:34] I think a lot of consumers are getting very confused by having a choice of 20 different wings 18 different stabilizers three different views it likes four different strut links and particularly I think. I think that a big fan of. Just the pick a stabilizer game it seems silly to me.

[01:03:58] They may have slightly different feels and maybe people that ride it a much higher level than I do are really onto something that I just don't can't feel or don't understand but for me.

[01:04:11] One of the things I would rather make sure that a stabilizer is adjusted at the proper angle relative to the front way rather than go pick another stabilizer like. Before you spend $400 or $300 on another stabilizer why not you tune the stabilizer you have so it's dead nuts perfect.

[01:04:35] And I have a bunch of videos out there on how to tune using shims. I mean we can go through that and I'd be more than happy to have another video out there if it reaches someone.

[01:04:48] That that as but you know, really if you and then there's so much misinformation like I sort of preparing for this talk I thought I shouldn't watch some YouTube videos of what other people are saying about.

[01:05:05] Heighter 4L set up and there's some really cringe where these stuff up there. People that don't know what the hell they're talking about but they're still talking. And they're they're talking as if they know what they're talking about it's there.

[01:05:22] I hear stuff like oh this stabilizer adds so much more lift the whole while produce so much more lift.

[01:05:30] The stabilizer doesn't produce lift it pushes down it produces the opposite of lift it's a downforce at the back you know so how is a stabilizer going to produce more lift.

[01:05:45] The way it produces more lift is that it produces more downforce which basically sets the front way and get a higher angle of attack.

[01:05:54] And then you feel like the foil produces more lift the stabilizer doesn't produce it so the way the stabilizer works let me grab it one.

[01:06:09] So first of all, you have to understand that a wing is kind of like this and you know the hollow part of the air foil is at the bottom and the top surface is curved because that's how you produce lift.

[01:06:25] The stabilizer is basically upside down like this is the curvy surface and the top is the flat surface. So the stabilizer pushes down at the back of the fuselage when the angle of attack is negative it's not positive like the front wing it's the opposite.

[01:06:46] So when the water hits this it pushes down and it's counteracting some it's counteracting a couple of different forces. First of all well I don't know how in depth but basically it pushes down. Yeah go to town like we got the time I'm happy to hear.

[01:07:08] I've been accused of talking too many details before. But no basically what the stabilizer is so interesting one way of thinking about it which I think is a really good way right so you have these things set up like this this pushing up this is pushing down.

[01:07:24] Basically what this stabilizer does is it sets the angle of attack of the front wing.

[01:07:30] So if you have a lot of down angle like this it's going to make the front wing ride very nos up right and the best way of really understanding this is just experiment with it like take a little sheet of plastic from an expired credit card or gift card.

[01:07:49] And you could put it up to the back and you could increase that angle so you're increasing the down force.

[01:07:57] And ride your hydrofoil like that see what it feels like and what you'll feel is that you're always on your front foot trying to keep the foil from coming up out of the water.

[01:08:07] You're going to have a lot of front foot pressure right and it's going to feel like oh my god the wing is so lifted the wing is so lifting but it's also very slow.

[01:08:18] And you'll have very poor speed range like it'll be okay at low speed it'll be very stable you know the pitch will be very mushy it won't be responsive to pitch at all. So in a way that's easy for beginner right.

[01:08:34] But when you try to power up you won't be able to go fast because as soon as you speed up it's going to just want to push you out of the water.

[01:08:43] You do it strapless like you think oh I can compensate I'll just stand further forward it doesn't feel good it's still not right even though now you've got your weight further forward compensating for the excessive front foot pressure the foil is just not riding.

[01:09:00] And then you know you could use even two pieces of credit card or something back there just make it extreme so you can feel what it's like. And then take that same piece of plastic and put it under the front and try that right and then.

[01:09:16] So if you take it too far that way now the stabilizer is in producing very much down force at all. And what will happen is that you'll find that all the sudden the board is touching down all the time.

[01:09:30] Like you'll have to ship your weight back and but even then like also like you'll have a lot of poor touches. And also the foil will feel very sensitive to pitch like you'll have to make a lot of tiny micro adjustments.

[01:09:44] And again I think the best way to do this is without straps if you're if you're comfortable riding without straps that way you can micro adjust your feet to be anywhere you need to be on or.

[01:09:56] And by you'll still feel least trimming differences if you get it exactly right and you know a credit card is pretty thick.

[01:10:06] You could even go into thinner shins to micro adjusted like a piece of water bottle you know single use water bottle you can kind of square out of that that's they know.

[01:10:19] And just get it adjusted when you get it exactly right your foil will feel so fast and just lively. Over the entire speed range it'll feel good going slow water it and the top end.

[01:10:37] The foot pressure will not change over the entire speed range and it'll feel rate it'll feel responsive quick. So my question to all these people that try stabilizers are like did you adjust it.

[01:10:54] Like that stabilizer that you're trying did you adjust the angles so that it's exactly right. If you did and you're trying four different stabilizers and you find one that makes you feel for you feel great. Maybe that was the only stabilizer that was at the right angle.

[01:11:15] Okay, right so if you're going to compare stabilizers and I'm not against absolutely absolutely support people experimenting with their gear. I love that everyone should do that right what's your at the level that can feel what it does.

[01:11:34] It's not something that you want to do us a beginner obviously. But just if you're going to compare stabilizers. Take the first stabilizer and find exactly the right shins that make that foil as lively and responsive.

[01:11:52] And you know adjust it as it can be your favorite shimming for that stabilizer. Take the second stabilizer you want to test and go through that same experimentation to find exactly the right shims for that.

[01:12:07] Take the third and write it down so you know okay this number of shims for this one, this number of shims for that one. Do it for the next one. And then once you have the perfect angle for each single stabilizer then compare. Okay properly shim.

[01:12:26] Now you're really comparing apples to apples because otherwise I can tell you we offer right now we're offering two sizes of stabilizer but we're going to be offering more.

[01:12:39] I do it reluctantly because I don't think it's that critical of an aspect of it but people are demanding it and the industry trend right now is towards smaller stabilizers. And unless you'll offer it your stuff looks out of and people look at okay. Oh that does.

[01:12:56] I don't think you know by that. So you know there are pressures and I will admit that yeah you can. I think you can ride smaller stabilizers. And certainly higher skill people can write smaller stabilizers no problem.

[01:13:14] The other thought process is that smaller stabilizers much faster and I hear this all the time. Oh I try the stabilizer oh it's so much faster it's like. Did you measure it with your GPS and compare that measurement with the other one? That just goes faster.

[01:13:31] It might feel faster because it's less stable that it's more responsive right now like you have a more responsive foil at 18 miles an hour. It feels faster than the more stable one at 18 miles an hour. You're actually going exactly the same speed.

[01:13:50] And David man actually did a video I think three years ago or something like that where he compared a number of stabilizers of different sizes.

[01:14:01] And he was really surprised but he did it scientifically. He measured the speed he actually did it using camera time stamps around a course.

[01:14:10] And what he found was that there was no no difference in speed for what he was doing which is pump foiling which is relatively low speed so this is the specific result to that right.

[01:14:24] He found no difference he was extremely surprised. He thought there was going to be a difference in speed. There was no difference in speed between the biggest one and the smallest one. And then he did something else he tried shimming.

[01:14:36] And what he did is he shimmed to the front of the stabilizer reduced the downforce. And then he found a difference in speed. So the tuning the stabilizer can result in a dramatic difference in speed. Now if you go to a smaller stabilizer there is less surface area.

[01:14:58] So there will be a reduction in speed and I don't deny that. But I will say that it might not be all that significant. And there are manufacturers that I respect there the I was watching a video from code hyperfoil.

[01:15:15] And I haven't ridden one but there are hyperfoils look great. And what they are saying makes sense. I think their design philosophy is right on target. Their construction looks good. But they seem very focused towards downwind paddling.

[01:15:31] So it may be different. I don't know really how you know what they're offering for winning. I don't know that much about their company. But they came out of this was a comparison of three stabilizers. I think it was a 140 or 150 or 160 or sizes close to that.

[01:15:50] But I mean it was 10 square centimeters increments. Tandy, right? Absolutely timing. And is it really going to make a drag difference? Like you could ride two which is higher on your strut and reduce the weted surface area on your mast.

[01:16:09] As much as reducing this and is that that much faster? I don't know. And as I said, you know, I do. I wait for like kind of an advanced intermediate guy. I'm not ripping waves.

[01:16:25] I've not denying that people that are very dependent on very fast maneuvers in a wave or downwind subfoiling that they might prefer one stabilizer to another. And I'm okay with that.

[01:16:45] But these claims that like, oh this stabilizer created so much more lift or this stabilizer so much faster would no one bothers to measure the speed. So these are outstanding claims. And I've had engineer and I was scientist. And I don't like that. You know, fair enough.

[01:17:05] So what's like every obviously there's positive shimming and negative shimming and there's an angle of attack that's set by the front wing. So then just by playing with that pitch you're going to get some differences that makes a lot of sense.

[01:17:18] Yeah, I'm most forils you could put you can adjust the shin on on the back of this certain forils or it's not adjustable. Okay. So that certain brands that have a tail piece with the stabilizer attached.

[01:17:33] There's certain forils that are just the bottom is one piece like the Mike Slap. There's no adjustment at all. Mike does a pretty nice job of of sending up his forils so there should be a problem in most cases unless you get a,

[01:17:48] at least doing a prototype or something where he doesn't know where it should be. And you know, like lift forils I don't think it's adjustable. Like the tail piece said that thing is one piece. You might be able to somehow, you know, yeah.

[01:18:05] I think AFS gave you the option with the 850 but they had set it up and you sang it was perfectly balanced. It might be. It might be. Yeah, if you're providing a complete foil and it, and I have to say like.

[01:18:22] Some brands are very good at testing, you know, like I see the videos of what Ken winter does and developing the do-a-tall wings. I think he's an amazing self-taught engineer.

[01:18:37] I mean, and just the level of testing and it shows in the performance of the product was no doubt, you know? And I know other brands are very serious about testing but. As far as the, uh, hydrophils for some brands that.

[01:18:52] Mostly offer wings or plates and then they have to have a hydrophil. It can be kind of a toss off product like we need a foil. Yeah. You know, fair enough. And then also it, when you get into a situation where.

[01:19:08] The big three like would be axes, arms, strong, SAB, they order that offer 20 different wings. They offer 12 different stabilizers. They differ offer different fuselage lengths. They offer different mass slings. By the time you pick your wing, your stabilizer, your fuselage or mass.

[01:19:27] There's absolutely no certainty that the stabilizer would, how could there be? How could you, how could you do it? How, how would it work that every wing, every,

[01:19:40] particularly fuselage length is going to have a huge influence because now you're changing the length of the lever arm that the stabilizer is working against, right? So you could have, so basically what I do is. I compensate.

[01:19:56] So if I offer a smaller stabilizer, I'll design the wing saddle area so that it will have an increased angle to compensate for rate the reduction in area. And then when I offer a longer fuselage, like for instance. Yeah. This is for the M frame set up.

[01:20:21] So if this is sort of the kite foiling length and then this is the, particularly the wing foiling length which is about, you know, I don't know what is that. Let's say five inches longer maybe, right?

[01:20:36] So the angle of attack on this one in the saddle will be less than on this one. So they'll be more downforce to compensate for the reduction in and lower arm. So I try to make it so that they'll all work, but it also depends,

[01:20:56] I think beginners in an intermediate, it's like a little bit more stabilizer angle because it makes the full more stable. Whereas when you get a little bit more advanced, I find I really need to ship on the production Delta stuff.

[01:21:11] I do one shin under the front of the stabilizer, I really like it like that. And so you know this is a certain amount of personal preference but again. I'm very, I mean I talk about this over and over and over and over again, adjust your stabilizer.

[01:21:31] And I even have like the best thing if you're really going to get serious about it is you can make a tool to measure the angle between the front wing and it's basically a metal caliper. Okay?

[01:21:46] And you cut little notches actually, I grabbed the raw one, this one doesn't have them but you take a file and you file a v-natch in both jaws. And then what you can do, you can take a hydrophil, like this one which is assembled.

[01:22:04] And you can clamp those v-natches into the front and into the back so that this is now held tightly at the angle of the wing. And I kind of wish I had the right caliper instead of the wrong one. This is what I got.

[01:22:24] And then there's one of these automatic level gauge. The brand I like is called a wixie. The cheap harbor freight ones don't work, they're not accurate enough.

[01:22:37] But basically what you can do is you, this has magnets in it so this just clips to the top and you turn it on. It was a turn-on. All right, now it's on. So you turn it on and then this little button is the zero.

[01:22:55] So now you have a zero angle for this. And then when you can do is you move this thing to your stabilizer and you can get the angle measurement relative to the front way.

[01:23:08] Normally it's it could vary but generally around two and a half degrees is pretty typical. And okay. It's also different depending on what you're doing like. If you're wakes boiling, I would say two and a half degrees, two point eight degrees.

[01:23:29] Maybe on a short fuse with a really small stabilizer. Three and a half degrees but it's good to know what it is.

[01:23:38] And then when you shim it, you measure it again and you can keep notes and then you know if you're switching wings, you're switching setups that just keep track of what we prefer. I was talking to King DeWild at 8.25 a.m.

[01:23:53] And you're the very talented engineer, very smart guy. And it's done a lot of pioneering work get the downward paddle area and also you know with me for leaning in jail for surf.

[01:24:08] And using a really small stabilizer now and you got to be running a high angle of attack with a stabilizer like that. And he says now I'm not really like a lot of times I'll run a degree and a half, I've even run zero degrees.

[01:24:23] And I was really confused by it. I didn't understand it, it was so different from my experience and then I realized he wasn't really talking about wake-wily. He was talking about downwind paddling.

[01:24:40] And the thing is that one of the things that the stabilizer produces downforce to counter is the thrust from the wing. So if you think about it, the driving force to make this thing is that shoulder height. Right?

[01:24:59] So you have this force pulling you and that force is at your shoulders. You're standing on top of the board. So between your shoulders and the salsa of your feet is maybe five feet. And then you've got another three feet below that to get to your wing.

[01:25:18] And the drag from the hydrophil is now eight feet below the thrust. So you have something pulling this way, eight feet up and the thing that's pulling back is here. So what does that do? It wants to tilt it, nose down.

[01:25:36] And that's one of the forces that the stabilizer is compensating for. But that doesn't exist in paddle foiling. He doesn't have that thrust line at his shoulders. He's basically gliding down the slope of water, right? So he needs a lot less stabilizer because of that reason.

[01:25:59] And I really glad I talked to him and you know, and it's great that he's, I mean, I'm very open to discussing hydrophilic sides with anyone. I've been out there competing brand. They designed, I'll talk hydrophilic. That's why I would not. So you love to do like it.

[01:26:19] And I want everyone to have better hydrophilic. I mean, I'd love if they buy Delta but if they buy something else because, you know, that's what people in their area ride that kind of foil. And that's what their local retailer sells that kind of foil.

[01:26:36] Fine. I'd still want that foil to be as good as it can be. So I'm willing to share information at least with G-Palli-Lay. Well, even when I had started a couple buddies of mine had talked about you being that pioneer, one of those pioneers with Delta.

[01:26:54] So I'd heard about it a long time ago and I said his concepts and his engineering is phenomenal. So definitely the word is out that was the case which was pretty cool to meet you in person and chat with you at AWS I

[01:27:07] and then get the chance to talk to you. Now it's pretty, it's awesome. Yeah, I mean, you know, when I started with hydrophilic, there were so many question marks. You know, it's interesting.

[01:27:20] And you know, the other thing about hydrophilic is that they all have this curvature now, right? They all kind of curve down and then they kind of flip up.

[01:27:29] And I think that was kind of the spots was the first with the curve down and then my exact actually pioneered this little flip up thing. The reason for that is that if you breach your foil wing like this, that it's a little bit more vertical.

[01:27:47] So it's more perpendicular to the surface of the water rather than if it's hooked down. And so you know, you don't tend to pull as much air down the wing when it's more perpendicular like that.

[01:28:01] But yeah, straight and you know, every single wing will pretty much have this curvature at. I really tried to make straight wings. They just don't work. Really, and pipe foiling the more curvature you have sort of the more stable it is.

[01:28:19] But I don't think we really want that much curvature in wing foiling because we need the efficiency, you know. And so this is one of the kind of. And the thing is that we offer this is the eight 60 and you can see how much curvature isn't that.

[01:28:40] Yeah, there's also a lot of sweet. So sweep is sort of that this goes back instead of being straight. And this also is less efficient, winks we like this. But what I find with the kind is that there's so much power from the kite.

[01:28:59] You know, you can dive the kite and the kite pulls up. So it's so easy to get up well. That, you know, you you trade efficiency for comfort. Yeah, okay. For ease of use.

[01:29:17] But what's interesting is that, you know, this is the smallest kite wing that we offer. It's an eight 60 and now we offer a smaller thing. Winging weight, right? Yeah. And actually we're going to probably offer the five 90 as well. So it's going to be quite a bit smaller.

[01:29:37] So winging has changed a lot. Like winging has gone very high efficiency, very high aspect ratio. And it's good. It's, it's, when I started winging, I kind of didn't like it. It was really hard to stay upwind at that time.

[01:29:56] Like I always felt like I was struggling upwind. It was slow and draggy. I think there's been a lot of handwing development, the handwings have gotten really gunificantly better. Really, absolutely. Yeah. And I think there's really two flavors now.

[01:30:16] There's deep grenty wings and then there's flat sort of speedy wings. I kind of like, I think for my 6.5 meter, I like kind of a deep grenty wing. And then for my five meter, my four meter and smaller stuff, I kind of like the thin lifty wings.

[01:30:36] They are harder to pump up on the foil, but away when they get going. They just feel so light in your hands. It's nice. Yeah. Like one now, I ride for KT and I ride the, they have their three meter and it's super dirty.

[01:30:51] And I love that aspect of it now with longer handles. It pumps well, but if I'm going into a tack or I want to move around, the wing is a lot more intuitive. And that's what I like about it.

[01:31:03] But before when I was learning the swing or the strike the one, I just sat there in the pocket, unbelievably stable. I love that at that time, right now I don't like it anymore because I've progressed. I kind of like it. I have the, the duetone, a D-Lap 6.5,

[01:31:25] like, okay, it was good wings. Oh my god. That's such a game changer for lightweight. This is, it's an expensive product, but it, it is notable. It is notably good. And I fly it off the harness and you get in pretty much just release your hands

[01:31:45] and it just stays. But with the type of wings that you're talking about, uh, and my other weights that I ride which are smaller, like even if you're in the harness there's still quite a bit of hand pressure just to stabilize the wing.

[01:31:58] I'm not sure I love that that much. Okay. Sure. And, you know, but that, the 6.5 meter slick is pretty grunty. It's really easy to pump up on before I'll, with that. Oh yeah, big time.

[01:32:14] And then the other ones, but what I find is with the other wings I ride are much flatter. And they're tougher to get off the oil. But actually I find that the foil feels different riding that style of wing.

[01:32:27] Like the foil is loaded more lightly because it's just not as much a lower pole. It's more like a forward thrust. And just the foil itself feels different and more lively. I really enjoy it. And those flatter wings also take a heavy wind really well.

[01:32:50] Like you can, you go ride super lit. Like you can be out in a lot of wind, not a 5 meter, which that helps getting up. Yeah. The innovation coming forward, I'm stoked about,

[01:33:02] could we go a little bit into what did you release anything new at AWS I or what's coming down the floor? Well, I think the 590 is coming and we're going to release probably two stabilizers of 140 in a 160. And a lot of people have requested flat stabilizers.

[01:33:23] If flat stabilizers look great because they're easy to make, the molds are cheap. And I don't have anything wrong with flat stabilizers. I've used curvature. If you have curvature in your stabilizer, it provides some yaw stability, which is basically the nose going left to right on the foil.

[01:33:41] Okay. That's kind of like doing the twists, you know? Yeah. But I think the thing that makes us really unique is the arm frame design and I don't know how to do that. Yeah. So what is that exactly?

[01:33:56] So basically, there is no joint between the mast and the fuselage. I think you can see that now in the light. So almost every other foil manufacturer has some sort of connection here. Correct. So basically, the top of this is solid. There's no connection there.

[01:34:18] This is one piece all the way from the top plate to the wings up. And also, I elected to use a braggar thickness of strut. It's 18 millimeters thick.

[01:34:33] But this air foil section for the mast or strut, however you want to refer to it, is well selected so we never get any sort of ventilation or flow separation which some other brands that have 19, 20 millimeters thick struts all sudden like air just comes out of no thing.

[01:34:55] We never have that regardless of the speed. But what it's created by eliminating this joint, every single joint has a little bit of play regardless of how well it's designed. It just, you know, bolts actually stretch. Right.

[01:35:10] When you tighten out a bolt, it actually stretches a little bit. And then when you put tension out it stretches more. So there's always a little bit of give.

[01:35:18] And, and there's also breakage because there's a lot of warranty issues where if you think of the mass going into that slot. So like our M frame, right? The mass slots into this. It's like a giant crowbar trying to pry this thing apart, you know.

[01:35:40] And eventually it does like particularly, you know. If you run around a lot or you jump or you like you'll just put tremendous stress and eventually they tend to crack around here, fail. It's every brand suffers with these types of failures.

[01:35:57] I mean, I guess if you were to make this out of aluminum, you could be, you know, you'd be better off, but then you have to deal with that weight and the corrosion issues of aluminum. But I don't think that aluminum is necessarily a bad choice.

[01:36:11] If a company goes that way, but you know, you just have to make sure that the stuff is written. It is heavier. And then, you know, you can still travel with it because the tail boom comes off. So a disconnect here with two screws. Okay.

[01:36:29] So, you know, this front part is only this one. So you can still travel without a problem. But what is resulted in is the mass is astonishingly stiff, like crazy stiff. And yeah, there is a tiny drag penalty of having a thicker mass.

[01:36:52] But you can go 24 miles an hour on list no problem. You know, it's like, and I was saying most people aren't into going that far. That fast. But I like it. I enjoy it.

[01:37:07] So I think whatever, I think I made the proper set of compromises on this setup. And, you know, the weighing amounts with just three bolts. So this is really unique in the industry. No one really has this design. So you can feel the stiffness.

[01:37:28] It really, it feels incredibly solid at stable. I'm sorry you didn't get a chance to try it at a very side, you know? Yeah, well, well, next year when I see it then, definitely.

[01:37:41] But what do you think about the Armstrong setup where they have that, like that fuse going through there? Or even I was talking to old men the other day and they did have that. Other setup like the, your M1 that you have there, but they're using stainless steel.

[01:37:59] Well, you know what happens is like you get stuck. Like whatever you start with, you know, you're stuck with that infrastructure that you set up. And then if you change it, then all your stuff is no longer compatible. Right? Yeah, exactly.

[01:38:20] Like always with that sort of socket system, it's really hard to get it dead nuts perfect. You know, because it's always a slipfit and all the guys that write go foils have mallets.

[01:38:35] Alex Aguero brings a mallet and then you're hammering on the hammering with thing on, which isn't that bad, right? But then you have to hammer it off. So now you're kind of hammering on the trailing edge. That's not so great. You know, and let's face it everybody.

[01:38:52] What are the things is because wing-foiling wings are so much bigger span than kite wings. The leverage on that joint is much higher than it's ever been. I don't think we had as much of a problem with it for kiteing.

[01:39:07] And that's why that's where the M frame comes. I need this type of set up with an aluminum strut. Like I have it set up here. So the frame was the original system we came up with. And we have a carbon fiber type plate that mounts to aluminum.

[01:39:31] And also carbon fiber fuse. So it's all carbon except for the aluminum strut. And the aluminum strut has a much thinner wall. So it's quite light. It's actually not anywhere near the weight of a standard aluminum. And the fit on this thing is extremely tight.

[01:39:49] So I've actually had customers that say, this thing doesn't fit. And that's how tight the fit is that it's precise. And this works pretty well. And interestingly, as the wings are getting smaller for winging,

[01:40:07] I think this could start to work well again because there's less of these torsional forces. But you know, with aluminum, with aluminum, it's always a thing with corrosion. People don't rinse their stuff. Then the bolts are stuck in there.

[01:40:24] But yeah, this joint, I was happy to get rid of it. But then we can't offer aluminum. We only have it in eight and five centimeters. Maybe when we see a clear knee for a very specific different height, we might bring out a different length mast.

[01:40:46] But 85 seems to kind of fit the bill. I think it's a great height. That's the standard that a lot of us are right. And if it is some ways or swell, like that 85 is a nice height.

[01:41:00] But you know, if you, it's I'm pretty happy with the way the aluminum came out That the wall is maybe like a sixteenth of an inch. So there's really a lot of hollow with this. And it's really not. It's not heavier much heavier than our carbon.

[01:41:18] We also offer a carbon strut, which is interchangeable for this aluminum one. And you know, the aluminum we offer in a bunch of links. We have it in 24 inches, 28 inches, 32 inches and 36 inches. So someone has a very specific preference for a link.

[01:41:38] Then they should do that in aluminum. And it's also pretty inexpensive. You know, our regular retail on the M frame is 12 under bucks, which is for, you know, height performance gear really is a good price pretty decent. Yeah, and the R frame is I think 1950 complete.

[01:42:01] And we're also now offering two other links of tail. We're offering a tail to make it sort of the same length as the kite for link thing. But there's people that like really short fuselage is now. So they might use that for winging as well.

[01:42:17] And then we have an intermediate leg tail that's coming out. So we have the short one and we have the long one and the intermediate one will probably have an coupled mugs. And then we have the two use stabilizers that coming out probably the five 90.

[01:42:33] I don't know how much of an audience will have for the five 90. I don't know, sort of be popular. I know for sure so many people would be happy with the 700. They may think that it's too small but it's just a surprise case. Yeah, I love that age 50.

[01:42:51] Yeah, they did a good job on it. I was just overall I'm just arriving a bigger wing. It gave me a lot of lift to give me a lot of glide. Yeah, so I think Armstrong and a bunch of other brands are kind of in and go full.

[01:43:05] They're kind of stuck with what they started with. And fair enough. A lot of times like I know Armstrong at some point changed the thing. I think Armstrong was going to be a big point change that they had some bolts that went through from side to side.

[01:43:18] And like now if you look at one of their setups, there's a lot of bolts going in at various angles. There's been some people that you know have shown up with older foils from that manufacturer. And the fitment, the wing was very loose.

[01:43:39] In one case the fuselage was actually broken inside of that sleeve that the mast attaches to. So you could just kind of wobble it and they were they would begin or say, I bought the gear used or whatever and we're struggling, you know.

[01:43:55] And if I could have repaired it, I would have repaired it for them, you know. But I just like it's too messed up. I can't fix this. I mean you should just probably get a delta. Again, immediately they saw a huge improvement.

[01:44:12] There are a lot of people out there on gear that's not set up right. That's broken that is maybe old and was not good. You know, maybe it was like the best that they had at that time.

[01:44:26] But there's a lot better gear now and it really hurts beginners and intermediates. Like they can really have their progress in Peter and they're not having fun. Like you're going out and you're falling and you're struggling and then, you know, it degrades your confidence. Oh, I saw.

[01:44:43] It beats that, you know. And so for me and this is weird because I buck trends a little bit right. Like I see this trend towards shorter and shorter. A few slages, smaller and smaller stabilizers. And I said, you're making the foil less stable.

[01:45:00] You're making it harder to ride. And there's no doubt that these 18 year old hot-shot guys that I see at AWS, I do in forward flips, popping up onto the foil and flat water, doing amazing stuff. Like they would prefer that. Like they need something that's ultra responsive, ultra-tourney.

[01:45:22] 90% of people don't need it and they don't want it. Like that's not going to serve that. You know? And yet there are a lot of influencers telling them, no, buy this loaf. This is making faster. This will make you better, you know? People want to sell things too.

[01:45:45] Like, where it's a business? You know, there's marketing. But yeah, I don't know. I am much preferred as my customers up with something that's going to make them have more fun and I've done it. I see it on a local level. People I interact with one-to-one.

[01:46:08] I end up spending a lot of time with them. You know, and this is all about retailer. Retailers are in their money by spending time with the customer. It's, you know? And I have really good relationships with a green hack-type boarding. They sell Delta. They believe in it.

[01:46:28] They've done a huge amount for me. And at AWS I they come out and they test all the gear very thoroughly. They sell stuff that they know it works and that it's going to work for that customers. And that's how they get their repeat business.

[01:46:41] I believe at that. So for a heavier rider though, that wants to go out and pretty light wind. I would recommend this 70-40 at that point. For beginners, I recommend for someone that's 150-140-180-185. I would recommend the 1400-100, which is, I call it a high aspect.

[01:47:07] It's a mid-aspect but it's a good wing. And you all know I grow it. But then I would recommend that they may be dropped down to the 10-50 or the 8-50 once they can get up on foil fairly easily and ride and drive. I would go back.

[01:47:25] Like, I think my doctor rides Delta. I got him in the foiling. He was a kite or he was a kite order. He'd 20. And the thing is that around here it blows 12 miles an hour and he shows up with a 20. He can't go out.

[01:47:44] And we're out there on foils ripping it up. I said, you're good enough to do this. You know, kite foily looks hard. And people are intimidated by it. I said, you can learn this. I'll set you up with gear. You learned it.

[01:48:01] And he learned to kite foily pretty quickly. And then the winging came along and I said, I should go for it. I could recommend gear. I sent a debris hat. I sailed with him yesterday. You know, it was two o'clock. The wind filled in. It was Wald 13, 14.

[01:48:16] And we went out and had a blast. You know, big smile coming back into the beach and said, I'm so glad you got me into this. You know, and so that's kind of what I mean it for.

[01:48:30] And I feel like I can't help a huge number of people. But I've helped four or five, you know, and hopefully green ad is doing that too. Other people that ride Delta are spreading the word. So yeah, it's, it's good. And you know, our manufacturing is good.

[01:48:50] I think I think our approach is good. And I'm more than happy to, you know, sell shorter few salages and smaller stabilizers to people that are looking for higher performance stuff. And obviously if I'm offering a 500 at 700 and I'm recommending them. That, yeah, Delta is performance gear.

[01:49:11] It's, but it also works for beginners. That's, that's the thing. You know, and you're not paying a premium to do it. Like yeah, and you can, you can buy a close out unit right now. There's so many sales and close out stuff.

[01:49:26] But a lot of the close out stuff may be a works okay or maybe it's not great. But I suspect that if you buy the close out stuff as you get better, you'll lot grow it and you'll have to buy better stuff down.

[01:49:40] And it may impede your learning. It may make it hard. So yeah, that's what Richard was saying from AFS when I talked to him. His recommendation was going for slightly higher quality. Something that you enjoyed to ride was higher performance and he felt it

[01:49:56] would last a lot longer. And that was his take on it for sure. Yeah, that's why I like quality. You know, I mean, I ride the Louis wings and I like them. And I pay extra for it.

[01:50:13] Unfortunately, the sad reality is that these wings, if you ride off it, you know, if you do 20 sessions a year, maybe you do 40 sessions a year on an off, I, you know, I probably ride 30, 40 times a year. Okay. They wear out. They blow out.

[01:50:32] Yeah, but can't be stretched and the performance degrades a lot. You go much slower. They're much less forward, the drag gear. It's not that they like pop and or tear or wear out and you can't use them anymore. It's just that they don't perform anymore.

[01:50:51] And I'm kind of hoping that there's some manufacturers ocean rodeo for one. But there are others that are incorporating new materials into the canopy. Which I hope will preserve the performance for at least a couple of seasons rather than just one.

[01:51:12] Yeah, if you're someone that rides 10 times a year, you probably get two years out of a way. It's hard because you pay a lot of money for these wings. Like yeah, you know, so I bought three, I bought three little wings. It was $6,000 and that lasted one season.

[01:51:34] Yeah, yeah. The resale value of these used wings is close to nothing. Which is what it should be. You know, I can't, you know, over there. Yeah, that's fair. Well, is there anything else you want to cover? We've been talking for a while. It's been an awesome chat.

[01:51:52] Well, I think, you know, just that I have tremendous gratitude for being able to be kind of on the front end.

[01:52:02] On the front end of this stuff because you know, I was able to get it to win surfing just as when surfing was kind of taking off and shortboards were happening. I was super passionate about when surfing. I thought it was my whole life.

[01:52:17] You know, that cutting cable on and I got in at that. Probably earlier here, it probably would have. I would have had less injuries at least post traumatic stress. I got it once they had like, you know, deep power systems that she can move second view open.

[01:52:37] Oh, yes, it's been a two meter. Sorry, two line, five meters would have been terrified. Yeah, well, then I started flying rammerkites that were too long. You know, we're designed for ice and snow. But it was a good time.

[01:52:51] It was scary at times, but, and then, you know, I got going super early in the pike forling stuff and then right at the beginning of the weight forling. I mean, it's, I've made so many friends and had so many good times.

[01:53:06] I just feel really blessed up and able to do it. Yeah, did you ever think your early career would lead to like promoting joy in this way or that you would have such a rich journey through the whole thing? Yeah, I hoped I would.

[01:53:22] Yeah, I felt like I was sailing small boats and racing small boats. I love it, but you know, the performance is so slow and it's like a lot of work. And then the wind surfing seems like the next thing and it was fast.

[01:53:42] You were really powered up at your just bang and over the water. And then the cutting thing came that you had the lift, but I think my whole life what I really wanted was the hydrofoil.

[01:53:57] And eventually I got, you know, and then eventually I was one of the people that really kind of brought it to fruition. And it has like the one take away from AWS eyes, my god. This is a hyperfoil show.

[01:54:15] Yeah, 100% you know, it's like it's a hydrofoil show and we didn't see that when it was kidding. When it was just kind of forling like hatefully was a little segment of kind of it was never more than like a third of it if that.

[01:54:34] But with winging all weying is foiling. It's a precursor to yeah, foiling and then in its basic essence surfing. Yeah, and now we're seeing it like now we're seeing it go entirely other directions like yeah, it's winging but you know now the hottest thing.

[01:55:02] Presumably I don't know how big this really will be is the downwind power foiling. Yeah, but I think it people that do it really love it and I've opened it comes big you know there's a lot of logistics to it like it's not you can't do it everywhere.

[01:55:19] You got to have an easy entry point up when downwind you got to have cars you got to have all that stuff but it seems.

[01:55:26] Yeah, you know, so things like that along like maybe like a super small deployable kite that would get you downwind that you could just I saw video they had like.

[01:55:36] Like a very basic kind of small height that they could get a bottle of oil and they just snuffed it right down into a bag like.

[01:55:44] And it was so small so you never know where these things go and right and the you know surf foiling itself is starting to take off. Yeah, you know paddling in prone or paddling in a paddleboard that's a foil or organic towed in.

[01:56:04] You know you're seeing Kylenny hydrophiling big waves because you need the speed you know it just and not just kind of this obviously other people as a lot yeah he's the you know a big popular answer that kind of stuff.

[01:56:22] So yeah, I'm really grateful for all of it and you know I think also winning is a kind of saving the industry we need that growth. I'm told that you know, kiteing is still watering then winning right now there's still more kite sold worldwide and certainly.

[01:56:43] You know I love kiteing I'm not giving it up by actually kind of this afternoon it was blowing about 10 12 miles an hour. I was ripping it up. That was awesome. Yeah, so I kind of enjoyed all and maybe I'll learn how to downwind stuff where I love it.

[01:57:01] So yeah, all my friends are from wind sports and I had a prior career. You know I was in metal finishing the electro plating and I taught at a university as ad job professor for 20 years. How a lot of students enjoy that.

[01:57:19] But and some I think after 20 years of doing one thing you're ever ready to do something else so I was definitely. I had invented a bunch of technologies of that industry as well it was really successful and it was worthwhile work.

[01:57:36] But I had this passion for wind sports I was always seeking out of work at three o'clock. And my freaking you know and I could get away with it like no one said anything but man my co-workers just hated it.

[01:57:49] That actually leads you on every once to leave nothing happens. But it's so fun man. Yeah, but I felt guilty like you know and at that time I had a young family wife.

[01:58:05] I would blow out of work at three o'clock you know then go out of the beach course you know my young child is at all with my wife right and ready for a break from a child care.

[01:58:20] I'm all that water and not like I'm partying illegally on a side street to sneak down to the beach. Like why do I feel so guilty? Dude you ditched work you ditched your family you're partying legally you're not even supposed to be here.

[01:58:35] That's why you're feeling guilty, you know. So yeah it makes sense that you would want to start your own company in born involved and it's ready.

[01:58:45] And I looked you know I looked at that old carapeno foil and it was so conspicuously not hybrid dynamic you know there were somebody things that just looked wrong about.

[01:58:57] And I was ready to take it on at that point, you know I think maybe it was a little bit of a midlife crisis I think I was just around 50 years old at that time and I had the energy to do it.

[01:59:09] And I put a lot of passion and work into it and learn to ship low. So when you know start at the 50 yeah yeah well good for you.

[01:59:21] Well it's a business yeah but that's a good lesson for a lot of kids now who the lack of motivation and and the drive to do stuff is at such a high level now. So that's nice to hear this.

[01:59:34] It depends where I see you guys over island yeah it's been it's sometimes it's tough to see the kids. Yeah it's tough.

[01:59:41] First of all our sports to expensive like we really lack like the young people you see are people that grew up in families that were water sports families. Yeah very true.

[01:59:54] And they're industry sponsor like probably not enough to support them but you know they get their gear they get maybe they get

[02:00:02] to travel like but but like a not super talented person that just grows up somewhere maybe they live you know a half an hour from the water.

[02:00:12] You know their parents are both working and like well how much does it looks fun how much and you told well it's five thousand dollars. Yeah like that's not possible like like 500 would be a lot you know what I mean it's.

[02:00:31] Yeah did you see the post by Teddy frant Teddy friends there friends he posted that on Facebook and that was the exact point he was making.

[02:00:40] Was that on Bon air it's like sure this is amazing I love this gear but not everybody's fortunate enough to be sponsored or to get gear at a discount or for free. Yeah. Will this gear ever drop in price do you think it will ever drop in price?

[02:00:54] Well how is it now? Yeah yeah but like they're like now you could you know I mean. Yeah yeah.

[02:01:00] For this time you can get no you can get brand new like they're going to be packaged deals that are just about two grand for a board of oil and a wing and you know will it be great stop. It'll be adequate stuff.

[02:01:17] You know if you're an athletic kid and you know and you're right to it you could make that work you can get foiling you know is $2,000 still too much for kit.

[02:01:28] Yeah you know it's and it's the same with the surfing it's the same thing with hiding and you know in terms of kids on islands.

[02:01:38] You know I spent a whole time on you and you and island and you know they desperately like bicycles that we throw away bicycles that you see on curves.

[02:01:49] Kids in those islands would love to get a bicycle like that right the problem is that those islands all right.

[02:01:57] Those islands all have incredible import tariffs so you can bring it in as a sellable good no no no matter how cheap like the tariffs are really really high you know and there are people I know people that go to the Caribbean they got kind stuff.

[02:02:15] They leave their stop there like they'll bring some old stuff and they'll leave it but. The thing is the stuff wears out the bladders pop and now they just don't have the skills or to maintain the equipment.

[02:02:31] This is the same with surfing there's people that are working to get kids on to eat and various other islands like to get them surfboards surfboards compared compared to what this sports about surfboards are cheap. I like getting you surfboard 400 it's still too much.

[02:02:51] Yeah for you know so yeah say we're saying it's a difficult thing I would really like to see.

[02:02:58] Sell in the combination to be made where you could gather there's so much used height surf stuff that still would be safe you know it's got a deep power system it's got a chicken that works. Maybe it's 10 years old but 10 year old kites are still safe.

[02:03:15] And people just throw them out they know what's to buy that there's no resale value white you know if we could get that kind of stuff put in a container.

[02:03:26] And ship it to these places and make it some but there would have to be someone that oversees it a instruction program maybe a destination place you know that runs.

[02:03:39] It's a lot of work it would be it would be a full time job to provide opportunities for kids in those locations to do it. And then really they're only way forward is to be in the industry like to be a sponsor writer and.

[02:03:56] You know you have to be pretty you have to have some talent in order to compete at those levels and there's a number of people that do yeah the strip you know and and it's show them the world and it's.

[02:04:09] But yeah this I mean sadly those places are still afflicted with what colonialism bit you know those people were exploited and then. When you could make sugar and some cheaper way in some other place they're just abandoned.

[02:04:29] But yeah I mean Haiti is maybe one of the saddest exats and that place was based on they actually had conditions were so bad that. There was a slave rebellion and they built their own republic after having a revolution.

[02:04:48] Because of that they were pretty much marginalized by every country that was dependent on that sort of cheap labor. And you know sadly yes we're very bad so yeah these things.

[02:05:05] Yeah I mean it's too expensive for young people in the United States and young people in the United States are some of the most affluent people in the world so yeah if you go to other places in the world it will be worse.

[02:05:19] But I guess you are right in saying that as gear progresses then hopefully over time that we will get more and more like options that are coming in at a lower price point as things progress. It's a natural.

[02:05:33] Don't be natural yeah we don't have to wait for that you know we have that now you can you can get.

[02:05:41] If you want to get a wing for a link up with one wing and the war in a foil you can get that for $2,000 you know there are options for doing it you could do some use things.

[02:05:56] There's marketers from China doing direct marketing into the United States that are doing that you know that's not great for. The industry the US industry the retailers that. You know they copy and existing like a very.

[02:06:14] Typical thing is that they copy like a national roster and now they're selling you know on Ali Baba you can get a. Copy of a national roster for 400 bucks or something and some people do.

[02:06:29] We're doing higher brand yeah they're they're from China they're fairly they're fairly low price but still to get started you know what they're fine my buddy has one of Vancouver Island and.

[02:06:42] And I was writing KT and it was a more powered up day and obviously mine performed better but his just fine like if you want to get up and just move there's nothing wrong with that like the the first versions of the Nash with these little bed sheets.

[02:06:55] Which powered up in 25 knots you can pump them in low wind but who cares you could still get going and higher wind just because what you want to do it's tough to learn.

[02:07:04] Yeah, it's tough to learn and but you know if you're super motivated you can do it it's. Yeah, yeah my situation is you know I mean.

[02:07:16] I can afford the sport that's and I mean how much am I spent on gear over the last 40 years so much so much. Yeah, okay.

[02:07:29] The stuff when I got out of wind surfing that just gave the stuff away for you know and I knew how much every I had carbon mass 400 dollars for a mask.

[02:07:40] 500 dollars for a car but we'll let all that stuff was it every sale is five hundred six hundred dollars. I just gave it all away and even that even that wasn't that easy because you know the stops kind of out of date.

[02:07:57] Yeah, there are many winds are for his left I still win surf and I just got myself my first skinny carbon. Yeah, it's a thousand bucks and you put your pennies away and then you super appreciate it when you pick it up but.

[02:08:11] I'm just so happy that there's options out there for people to experience a little bit more.

[02:08:17] A little more happiness little more get outside the community is phenomenal so for that stuff I'm super thankful for for pioneers and for people like yourself that have dedicated a lot of their time and and put resources behind it just to do this.

[02:08:30] You don't have to do this you get to do another things but I want it. There you go. You know, it's funny my wife but we've I've been married for over 30 years and and congrats and you know someone asked her like you know how did.

[02:08:47] Why is how is it that George like learned how to do this and she said he was born to do this.

[02:08:52] Like this is what he was born to do she's right this is you know and I was in industry I what I visited electronics plants all around the world but.

[02:09:04] I don't know I didn't have a I mean I did have a passion for my work but I didn't have a passion for being inside electronics plants.

[02:09:11] You know now when I test my engineering designs I have to put on some block you know I have to travel someplace warm so. It's all the trend story but you brought up one survey because I had such a passion for it.

[02:09:27] And there was something really special about just hanging off the boom like being in the straps and just like committing your way being listed by that say yeah.

[02:09:38] But I get it from windy now like I get that same sensation it's it's brought me full circle it's also windsurfing in a way you know.

[02:09:51] So closer yeah absolutely yeah if you're hooked in yeah yeah I'm you know I right looked in all the time I anyone that will ask me I'll recommend that they get an arts.

[02:10:03] It it helps with getting up when you write up it just takes a pressure off your hands you could ride longer for me at this point.

[02:10:12] The one thing about waiting is it's pretty physical I would say that it's higher exertion than the kite foiling maybe not the kite foiling racing but like just recreational kite foiling.

[02:10:24] You don't even break a sweat really if you took right but the winging is definitely like a higher exertion.

[02:10:32] I find it challenging I can't I can't do like two hour sessions but it is phenomenal for fitness you know and I ran into my exact right who does my slabs foils and.

[02:10:44] I mean he rides he sells he foils you know but I saw this year and he looked really fit look like he had lost some weight.

[02:10:52] You know and I've met you to tell me says oh now it's the same I have to change no he lost and he looks fitter he lost weight and I think it's winging like you get out there and just want to do it and you're exercising at high level of exertion for.

[02:11:09] Like would you run for two hours how much fun to be to run for two hours you know like you wouldn't do it. So yeah I think all in all it's good and I plan to be at it for as long as I can.

[02:11:24] I often wonder like is there more to do like is is hydrophilic design. Like you could say there's nothing really you and wind surfing sales right or wood surfing like at some point it's complete.

[02:11:40] I think maybe we're getting close you know like but I think they'll maybe they'll just be different applications like this down with paddling thing or maybe the place for the most development is surfing because I think it's the hardest thing to quantify.

[02:11:59] Because people that surf it's all about the feel like I feel this feel that. And I don't discount what they feel on the water but it's extremely difficult.

[02:12:11] Then to hack on it to improve it like I don't really know how to make a physical change of the foil to improve. What they'll feel you know okay and that's the hardest like if you're just trying to go faster than there's it's.

[02:12:28] It's pretty clear what you need to do. Or if you want a foil that gets up sooner it's pretty clear what you need to do in terms of control and maneuverability it's a lot more subtle so.

[02:12:43] Maybe there is still room for improvement about four years ago I got the opportunity to ride a spots one which was like the original coil I started with ten years ago. Oh cool and I was shocked and how hard it was to ride. And how slow it was.

[02:13:02] And this was a race foil. Yeah and it was a tricky difficult to ride really hard to control it and it was also very slow.

[02:13:11] And now looking at it I can see what was wrong with it like it had way too much came very the wings was stiff enough and various other things you know the the strut and the way we're too close together.

[02:13:28] Really like to have the master the struts set further back from the way because it in parts y'all stability and I think also a cruise various performance parameters of the week. And some some designers are very clued into that and some less so.

[02:13:49] So you know in hindsight it's it's pretty clear but it's amazing because you know back 10 years ago. We had it difficult like the equipment was not great it was hard to ride. Things are much easier now much better. Yeah.

[02:14:08] Oh yeah it's a good time to get into it and I'm so happy that there's a lot well there's a lot more people getting in and I give lessons and everyone's so wild these are people would never seen when they never thought they'd be on the water.

[02:14:20] And the amount of excitement they get and then the freezing the feeling they get of how quiet it is and how much they can sight see and all these new experiences for them I'm just get so stoked for them.

[02:14:31] Because you never know where it's going to take them. Yeah that's a magic carpet ride you know and with the winging there much less likely to be killed than with the game for building. Significant little us.

[02:14:44] I haven't had a wing drag me over parking lot for the cars yet. Or the one I've heard that they're that when you're getting it's they buck on it I guess and the foil comes up and it gets caught up in the lines in terms of into. Good.

[02:15:01] That's one thing I've heard about. I'm off to that just don't like the thing that really kind of gets a lot of people that I don't like it's really scary is kind of the taco fold. To lure.

[02:15:15] Yeah, all the stuff you get all the stuff like you're falling to lure and the foil is coming up and it's like oh and there's like how do you extricate yourself right now. And you know I've got all sorts of freaking scars on me from.

[02:15:31] That's what my shoes are using. That's what it's like. Let's stay working. Well, thanks so much for reaching out. I'm glad I was able to you know chat with you. It's super comfortable and yeah it was a blast. Yeah maybe we'll get you out on the Delta.

[02:15:50] I would love to try that and if I don't see you before a WSI next year. Thanks for coming on and we'll have to have you back on chat some more. Now obviously I take a lot of comments and questions from the community so there's anything specific.

[02:16:04] I'll just reach out to you and make a deal with that. Yeah absolutely and you know Deltahydrofoil.com that's our website of MacCiteboarding, Carries Delta, Read Hat, Citeboarding, Carries Delta, this we have a shop and how are the carry stills.

[02:16:22] So yeah we have stuff in stock we have the 700 and that I think for winging I would if you have a lower budget then you can definitely. Do the M frame system for $1200 and get a really high performance way.

[02:16:39] And then if you decide to do an all carbon system you can do the arm frame and all the things will work everything's compatible. Beautiful yeah okay. All right George take care. Hey thanks so much. All right everybody. Thanks for joining us tonight.