Visit: https://ensis.surf/
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wing Life Podcast, where we talk about wing foiling and the lifestyles
[00:00:12] of those who enjoy this great sport.
[00:00:14] Well, hi, Carl.
[00:00:15] It's great to meet you.
[00:00:17] And thanks a lot for joining me today.
[00:00:18] Hi, Luc.
[00:00:19] Thanks for the invitation.
[00:00:20] Great to be with you.
[00:00:22] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:25] How did AWSI turn it for you and your team?
[00:00:28] I know it was a pretty cool trade show every year, and we just briefly touched on it.
[00:00:34] Yeah, it was the second time that we attended this show with NSIS.
[00:00:43] So last year, it was the very first time.
[00:00:46] This year, we already knew how everything works very well.
[00:00:50] It's like to build up the port, everything.
[00:00:52] We already had a few contacts.
[00:00:54] We are still building up the network, shop network in North America.
[00:01:01] So it was great.
[00:01:04] It was a bit hidden in the corner this time.
[00:01:09] So the organizers promised that we get a better place location next year.
[00:01:15] But it was good.
[00:01:22] For us, it was not only people from the USA.
[00:01:28] Lots of Canadian shops were there.
[00:01:30] And what I realized almost all countries from South America like Chile, Brazil, Argentina,
[00:01:37] everybody was there.
[00:01:38] So it was really good.
[00:01:41] And for us, it's a good place to meet other brands, see other products, talk to each
[00:01:49] other.
[00:01:51] You see how I look around what other brands do, what they come up with.
[00:01:56] So yeah, it's good that there should be more trade shows like that actually.
[00:02:01] There are not too many around the world.
[00:02:04] Yeah.
[00:02:06] Did you get to get out on the water at all and ride your stuff but just kind of enjoy
[00:02:13] Hood River a little bit as well?
[00:02:17] We did some riding before and after the show, but not during the show.
[00:02:21] I was actually just too busy.
[00:02:26] Like we were just the three of us.
[00:02:28] So next year, we probably have to bring some more stuff, more people with us.
[00:02:34] But this time in during the show, I was just at the boot and talking, talking, yeah,
[00:02:41] with lots of people.
[00:02:42] Yeah.
[00:02:43] That makes sense.
[00:02:45] Oh, hey, Carl.
[00:02:46] I'd love to learn a little bit more about you.
[00:02:49] Could we go a bit more into your history and find out when was the first time you came
[00:02:55] in contact with wind and what kind of an impact did that have on your life at that
[00:03:00] time?
[00:03:01] Well, I'm kind of an old guy, so I'm not the honest in the industry.
[00:03:08] So I actually, I was born in my family.
[00:03:15] My father, he was a mountain guide.
[00:03:19] We live next to the Alps in Switzerland.
[00:03:21] So we I always did a lot of outdoor sports like skiing, hiking, climbing, biking.
[00:03:33] Yeah.
[00:03:34] I love to do that.
[00:03:36] And I came into windsurfing very early.
[00:03:40] And I was a very passionate windsurfer.
[00:03:43] I'm still a passionate windsurfer.
[00:03:45] I still love windsurfing a lot.
[00:03:47] Oh, awesome.
[00:03:49] And so I, yeah, I loved windsurfing like during university every three day.
[00:03:57] I was on the lake.
[00:03:59] I was traveled to the sea, where to Italy, wherever I could go for windsurfing.
[00:04:05] And that was actually how I came into the windsport.
[00:04:11] And then with kiting, I learned to kite.
[00:04:14] Never was a good kite that I would stand up.
[00:04:17] I practiced still a lot of stand up.
[00:04:22] And now with a wingfoil, I try to catch up and keep a decent level of wingfoiling.
[00:04:30] Yeah.
[00:04:31] Fair.
[00:04:32] That's pretty cool.
[00:04:33] How old were you when you started?
[00:04:35] Do I have to say that?
[00:04:37] You don't have to.
[00:04:38] But it'd be kind of cool to find out how long the master's been in the wind.
[00:04:44] I mean, the end of my, I'm at the end of my fifties.
[00:04:48] So I go to, yeah.
[00:04:50] Okay.
[00:04:51] So why, oh cool.
[00:04:52] I know I look much younger.
[00:04:54] You should say that now.
[00:04:55] But you do.
[00:04:56] Yeah.
[00:04:57] Yeah.
[00:04:58] Yeah.
[00:05:00] So I guess when did you start initially windsurfing then?
[00:05:05] You must have been pretty young.
[00:05:06] Yeah, but that was in minus around 18.
[00:05:12] Yeah.
[00:05:13] Okay.
[00:05:14] So it's a long time ago.
[00:05:17] And when I went to college, we were like a group of young people and we decided to
[00:05:28] instead of learning for the exams, we decided to go and learn windsurfing.
[00:05:37] So we started windsurfing at college and so that was in 82, 83 I think.
[00:05:45] Yeah.
[00:05:46] 82 I think.
[00:05:47] Okay.
[00:05:48] Yeah.
[00:05:49] And since then I practiced it as much as possible.
[00:05:56] I'm on the board just as much as possible.
[00:05:58] Yeah.
[00:05:59] Oh, nice.
[00:06:00] Yeah, it takes over life.
[00:06:01] Yeah.
[00:06:02] Well, I mean, when it's a passion, it dominates your life and that's not always, it's not
[00:06:10] always good.
[00:06:11] It's like every other things come second.
[00:06:13] So yeah, but that's how it is.
[00:06:18] And then when I was older, like when I was 22, 22, I thought I'm a good windsurfer.
[00:06:28] So I took one year off at university and wanted to become a professional windsurfer.
[00:06:38] But after a few months, I already realized that I'm better in business than in windsurfing.
[00:06:46] Although I love it, but I was not good enough.
[00:06:49] So yeah, but I thought that yeah, I'm going to be a good competitor.
[00:06:54] So yeah.
[00:06:56] And then I stopped that project.
[00:06:58] I just do it, just windsurfed for farming.
[00:07:01] All the water sports I do just for farming.
[00:07:03] Yeah.
[00:07:04] When did the idea of ENZIS come around for the first time?
[00:07:08] I was working in the water sports industry since 97.
[00:07:16] So I founded my company in 97 as a distributor for windsurf gear.
[00:07:27] So yeah, I did that for many, many years.
[00:07:31] And in 2019, I saw Winfoil-ing the first time.
[00:07:40] Robynash was Winfoil-ing then, the news board, new pictures.
[00:07:44] I was extremely excited.
[00:07:47] And I was already working with Baltz.
[00:07:49] I was his sponsor.
[00:07:51] I gave him some gear.
[00:07:53] I knew him quite well.
[00:07:54] We did some testings and developments with another brand.
[00:08:00] I was involved at that time.
[00:08:03] And yeah, the first time Baltz jumped on a wing on an Infoil board.
[00:08:12] After 10 minutes he came to me and said, this is what I want to do.
[00:08:16] This is my sport.
[00:08:18] I want to do wing foiling.
[00:08:21] And we were looking for a sponsor for him.
[00:08:25] And well, nobody was interested in Baltz.
[00:08:30] And the ones that were interested, Baltz said no.
[00:08:33] He said no, I'm not going to write for this brand or we are...
[00:08:37] So we said, okay, we're going to do our own wings.
[00:08:41] And it was exactly the same time when Damien, our wind designer, quit his job at another
[00:08:49] brand and he said, well, I could decide your wings.
[00:08:55] So that was like a perfect start for Ensis because we had the best wing designer.
[00:09:05] We had a very good team rider and opinion leader.
[00:09:10] And I had a lot of knowledge of the market.
[00:09:13] And I knew all the producers and the shops.
[00:09:18] And so it was really a good start.
[00:09:22] But that was in 2019 when we decided and in March 2020, we sold the first wings.
[00:09:32] This was exactly at the same time when COVID came up.
[00:09:36] So we started with COVID.
[00:09:39] Very, very successful.
[00:09:42] We grew much too fast like with all the problems you have when you grow.
[00:09:49] Always running after everything.
[00:09:51] You need money, you need employees, you need offices, you need everything.
[00:09:58] Like...
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[00:11:20] At Saladita Kiteschool.
[00:11:22] But it was now.
[00:11:24] Yeah, it was great.
[00:11:27] Everybody was asking for our products and that was really a good start.
[00:11:34] Oh, wow.
[00:11:35] Enzis is quite young.
[00:11:37] So it's a very young brand that we are in.
[00:11:40] Well, the brand Enzis exists quite a while.
[00:11:46] I owned this brand for a few years, but we never activated it.
[00:11:51] We did not use it.
[00:11:52] So when we decided to develop some wings with Balzentinian,
[00:11:58] I was looking for a brand for our name and we said,
[00:12:02] okay, I have a brand that we could rebrand.
[00:12:08] And so it's Enzis, yeah.
[00:12:12] Wow, that's pretty cool.
[00:12:14] So when did you enter into the wind sports industry?
[00:12:17] Was that right after college?
[00:12:22] Well, that was just to give a bit of backstory.
[00:12:24] Yeah, that was a bit of an OTC to me.
[00:12:28] I went to college then I went to university in Zurich,
[00:12:31] started economics.
[00:12:33] And after that, the plan was that I would work at a Swiss bank at UPS.
[00:12:42] So I always worked there for running some money.
[00:12:46] That was very good.
[00:12:49] And after the university, I started at UPS.
[00:12:54] And but yeah, I think I worked there for probably a year
[00:12:59] and then I realized that this is not my world.
[00:13:03] And then while I did the biggest mistake in my life,
[00:13:10] I started my own company and that started selling windsurf boards.
[00:13:16] So that's how it started.
[00:13:19] Yeah.
[00:13:20] And so I started in 96 with my company.
[00:13:27] But I was always windsurfing when I worked at UPS
[00:13:33] at university.
[00:13:34] I was always windsurfing, I was always.
[00:13:37] But my company, that was not the plan in my life to work in that business.
[00:13:44] I always thought I my place.
[00:13:48] You know, I'm very Swiss.
[00:13:51] So and safety and organized life is important for me.
[00:14:03] And so a bank career would have been perfect.
[00:14:06] But it was not just too much.
[00:14:08] It was a yeah, so I wanted to be free and not everything was planned.
[00:14:14] So it wasn't well, it was like a big difference to working at the well organized bank
[00:14:24] to come into windsurf industry where nothing is organized like it was freestyle.
[00:14:32] Everything was freestyle.
[00:14:34] Yeah.
[00:14:35] And it still is, it still is a lot of freestyle in our industry.
[00:14:39] But I'm good at that now.
[00:14:42] Truly.
[00:14:43] Yeah.
[00:14:44] You've gotten some practice over the years.
[00:14:45] I got some practice.
[00:14:48] Oh no.
[00:14:49] All right.
[00:14:49] So when you founded ENZIS, who is working with you on ENZIS right now?
[00:14:56] Could we go through the list of people, board designer, wing designer and that kind of thing
[00:15:02] just to introduce those to everybody as well?
[00:15:03] Yeah.
[00:15:04] So okay, to be started with, as I said, started with it was Balz Damien and me.
[00:15:10] And then the big step was Karen, my wife.
[00:15:17] She entered the business in a very early stage.
[00:15:23] And she's an expert for marketing and sales.
[00:15:28] So she did, she was responsible and she still is responsible for the branding for sales,
[00:15:34] for all the important things to build up a brand, to give the brand a face and a core
[00:15:42] and the image.
[00:15:43] And Karen also organized the structure inside.
[00:15:50] So we grew and she tried to catch up with organizing everything like people and
[00:15:57] offices and cash and everything.
[00:16:00] Yeah, so.
[00:16:01] Oh wow.
[00:16:01] Good for her.
[00:16:02] So that was a she was not much involved in products but like in the background that
[00:16:09] she just organized the base that we could that we could grow on that.
[00:16:16] And Damien, he is like responsible for the wing development, wing designs.
[00:16:22] And then we started with a Benoit Plaisment.
[00:16:26] He is a Swiss board designer from Geneva.
[00:16:32] Also very Swiss, very reliable, very organized.
[00:16:36] Very good.
[00:16:36] I did already a few other projects with Benoit earlier.
[00:16:42] And so he designed the boards, the board range.
[00:16:48] Still, they have the existing boards we have.
[00:16:51] They're all from Benoit.
[00:16:53] Then we got a few very important people for the development like Mickey Rohan.
[00:17:00] He's a best friend of Baltz.
[00:17:05] They always are together on the lake, on the water.
[00:17:09] They spend a lot of time on the water.
[00:17:12] So he was involved in the design of the board.
[00:17:16] So he was important for testing.
[00:17:18] He's testing all our gears and prototypes.
[00:17:22] And he does, you know, he must write everything even when we think he doesn't work.
[00:17:28] He has to write it and test and give feedbacks.
[00:17:31] Sometimes we learn more from products that do not work nice than when it works nice.
[00:17:38] So that was a Mickey and Patrick now.
[00:17:44] He's like an innovator, engineer.
[00:17:49] He is extremely innovative with new ideas.
[00:17:54] Like he's working on a new designing software for wings.
[00:17:59] He's working a lot with new fabrics for wings.
[00:18:04] Like every week he comes up with something new.
[00:18:08] So we have a lot of interesting people in the team.
[00:18:17] Then we had a cooperation with Remy.
[00:18:19] Remy is also an engineer for helmets.
[00:18:25] All he's doing is developing helmets for brands, for other brands.
[00:18:32] I met him.
[00:18:34] He's a windsurfing.
[00:18:35] Now he's a winger as well.
[00:18:36] He's also doing something.
[00:18:39] So then we started with him the project with water sports helmets like KS.
[00:18:44] But he's always wearing a helmet.
[00:18:46] So that's that's that's bald with his white helmet.
[00:18:51] So I said, yeah, we need we need a helmet.
[00:18:53] Everybody should wear one.
[00:18:55] So we developed that helmet with Remy and have now a nice helmet program.
[00:19:07] Yeah, we have a good cooperation with an Italian foreign brand where we develop
[00:19:15] for us with them and just rebrand it.
[00:19:18] Oh awesome.
[00:19:19] So like what we what we always try my intention is always to work with the best.
[00:19:26] Is it like designers or team riders or also in the graphic department
[00:19:34] with this with the producers we always try to work with the best.
[00:19:40] And and well, I think at the moment our team is we have like, yeah, the best people in the
[00:19:50] industry.
[00:19:51] There are others that are also good but we have the best.
[00:19:57] That's good to hear.
[00:19:58] Yeah.
[00:19:58] Well, I do like your I do like the logo who came up with that concept.
[00:20:04] The NC's logo.
[00:20:05] Yeah.
[00:20:06] Well, that's a funny story with the brand NC's like because a good friend of mine,
[00:20:12] he run a sports shop in Switzerland close to us.
[00:20:18] And his shop was not running really well.
[00:20:22] So and he said, well, you know, yeah, can you support me?
[00:20:26] I said, yeah, I support you.
[00:20:29] You get some gear.
[00:20:30] But whenever whenever you see it's it's not working.
[00:20:35] Let me know what and one day he called me and said, sorry, but I lost my house.
[00:20:42] My shop is closed.
[00:20:45] My wife left me everything is bad.
[00:20:48] And that's the only reason I still use some money.
[00:20:53] All I can offer you is a small brand and that was NC's.
[00:20:58] And I said, yeah, well, what is it?
[00:21:00] Yeah.
[00:21:00] He developed some some stand up boards and paddles.
[00:21:04] And also the logo he was like he's a very creative person.
[00:21:11] And the logo was already there.
[00:21:14] We just changed it slightly.
[00:21:17] And that is that is NC's.
[00:21:19] So I had NC's for many years.
[00:21:21] We never used it.
[00:21:23] And when we came up with the wings, I said, okay, we
[00:21:26] we're going to rebrand and build NC's up as a wing brand.
[00:21:35] So that's the story with it.
[00:21:36] Oh, that's cool.
[00:21:37] Does it stand for anything?
[00:21:39] Yeah, it's Latin.
[00:21:41] And it means a sword.
[00:21:46] And there's I think there's a muscle that also is called the NC's like a sword shell.
[00:21:56] But it's Latin and means sword.
[00:22:00] Oh, it's SWRD?
[00:22:02] Yes.
[00:22:03] Or sword?
[00:22:03] Yeah, right.
[00:22:04] Sword.
[00:22:04] Okay.
[00:22:05] Oh, sword.
[00:22:06] I don't know.
[00:22:06] Cool.
[00:22:07] Okay.
[00:22:08] Cause through I guess that's fitting for a foil brand.
[00:22:11] I had no choice.
[00:22:12] I just took it.
[00:22:15] You know, it's a really it's build up a brand.
[00:22:20] I built up other brands before I ended in the ski industry.
[00:22:25] And it was always a hassle to build a brand.
[00:22:32] There's because whatever you try to register, it's already occupied.
[00:22:38] Like someone doesn't like it.
[00:22:42] So we are a lot of the past.
[00:22:45] I was not very lucky with my brands and always something happened.
[00:22:50] And I had to stop it or rename it or rebrand it.
[00:22:53] So we decided to work with an existing brand and rebrand it.
[00:22:59] Oh, awesome.
[00:23:00] All right.
[00:23:01] Can we talk a little bit about who is I know we talk balls is writing for you.
[00:23:06] Could we talk about to see who else is on your team of pro writers and
[00:23:10] where are they at around the world?
[00:23:15] Yes.
[00:23:16] Yes.
[00:23:17] We have a very balanced team of main women and youngsters.
[00:23:26] So we have a lot of lots of girls, women working for us in marketing and communication.
[00:23:37] Our team manager is a girl.
[00:23:39] It's Eva.
[00:23:40] She's a Baltz's wife.
[00:23:42] So she's responsible for the team.
[00:23:44] She does a great job.
[00:23:47] I realized that the female team managers, they get much better than that.
[00:23:54] You get the job done.
[00:23:56] They do a good job.
[00:23:59] So we have we try to have a good balance.
[00:24:04] Yeah.
[00:24:04] And we try to be respectful with all of them.
[00:24:08] And then we have a few top team writers like Baltz.
[00:24:13] It's like Alessandro Tomaso.
[00:24:15] He's an Italian writer living at Lake Garda.
[00:24:18] He's fully into racing.
[00:24:20] He comes from Olympic windsurfing.
[00:24:24] So he's a very good racer, very successful at the moment.
[00:24:29] Unfortunately, he's injured at the moment.
[00:24:32] And he's racing and it gives a lot of feedback for the race gear and the race side of the equipment.
[00:24:41] And we have good girls team like Aga Block.
[00:24:47] She's a Polish team rider.
[00:24:50] She's very good at freestyle.
[00:24:52] She's actually started the first competitions this year and ended to be, she's really, really good.
[00:25:00] Then Giulio Raimondo, he's the son from Ray.
[00:25:07] Old windsurf legend.
[00:25:09] Very talented in windsurfing now.
[00:25:12] He's very talented in winging as well.
[00:25:16] Probably one of the best Italian riders.
[00:25:19] Very young, good looking, wild.
[00:25:22] So everything they are.
[00:25:24] Works out well.
[00:25:24] Yeah.
[00:25:25] So it's good.
[00:25:26] Yeah.
[00:25:28] Who else is there?
[00:25:30] I don't want to miss someone else.
[00:25:31] Oh my, they're going to be angry with me.
[00:25:34] Yeah, but we have a lot of good team rides and a lot of youngster.
[00:25:39] So we invest a lot in the youngsters team.
[00:25:41] We have a program running here in Switzerland.
[00:25:44] It's called Foylemania where kids can do like a few days with any kind of
[00:25:56] foil sports like wing foiling, kite foiling, pump foiling, dog start foiling, everything.
[00:26:02] And we support that very strong with some gear and some financial support.
[00:26:11] And there we have a lot of young kids.
[00:26:13] So, oh, that's really cool.
[00:26:16] We have 10 years old team riders.
[00:26:19] They're performing crazy.
[00:26:21] It's like, yeah, really, it's unbelievable to see how
[00:26:25] these young kids learn fast and what they can do after a few months.
[00:26:34] It's incredible.
[00:26:35] Yeah.
[00:26:36] Oh, yeah.
[00:26:37] And as I said, we try to build up a strong women team.
[00:26:43] Which is nice to see.
[00:26:44] It's really nice to see brands helping more female athletes get in and compete
[00:26:49] and spread that out.
[00:26:51] I like that.
[00:26:52] Yeah, especially in winning which is not like such a physics sport.
[00:26:58] It's more like a technique and style, a lot of style.
[00:27:02] And the women are better, most of the time better in style than men.
[00:27:08] And so yeah, I mean it's 50% of the population.
[00:27:13] So we try to have a good balance.
[00:27:16] And yeah, we get a lot of requests from women to join our team which is good.
[00:27:26] Yeah.
[00:27:27] That's pretty cool.
[00:27:28] I'm curious about your gear in general.
[00:27:31] Like how did your designers, I guess, come up with their V1s and V2s?
[00:27:36] And because the industry was a little bit early.
[00:27:41] People who came out super early,
[00:27:44] there's always been radical changes in gear.
[00:27:47] Just kind of curious to see how that's even evolved on your team
[00:27:52] and maybe what you're seeing coming up in the future.
[00:27:56] Yes, we were very lucky with the first products we launched, I must say.
[00:28:04] Because the very first win we launched was working very well.
[00:28:10] And that was pure luck.
[00:28:13] I mean, we had a good designer, we had good team riders, they gave feedback.
[00:28:17] But in the end, we just launched, we just produced a product.
[00:28:22] And that was performing really well.
[00:28:27] And that was a good base to start with.
[00:28:32] And then in the beginning development was really fast.
[00:28:39] Like every production we improved in building, in reinforcements.
[00:28:46] So like every three months, we had a better ring on the market.
[00:28:53] Also with all the problems that come with that,
[00:28:56] like we had breakages, we had problems in the production.
[00:29:01] But we always could follow up and offer a good after-sales service.
[00:29:09] For me, that was important.
[00:29:10] That you can do something wrong, but you have to fix it.
[00:29:15] And you have to have a plan how to fix it so well.
[00:29:20] And this development slowed down a bit at the moment.
[00:29:26] It's a bit slower still, a lot of development in the industry.
[00:29:29] But it's not like every three months, you get a completely new ring or
[00:29:33] much better ring.
[00:29:36] So this is also good.
[00:29:37] It gives us more time for long-term testing,
[00:29:43] for testing some new ideas that take longer till you can throw it into production.
[00:29:50] But in general, we talk about innovation triangle internally.
[00:30:01] It's a triangle and the triangle is like one corner is the market.
[00:30:07] This is more or less its mean.
[00:30:09] Then we have the team and then the designer and the producers.
[00:30:14] And from one of these corners, there's always coming a request.
[00:30:21] Like it could be that I say we need that ring for this customer, so for schools or whatever.
[00:30:27] Or team riders they say we want the faster ring for racing or
[00:30:32] at that ring that turns, rotates fast in freestyle.
[00:30:38] Or then producer comes up with new ideas, new material or whatever.
[00:30:45] And the designers as well I thought we could do that.
[00:30:47] So a lot of inputs from everywhere.
[00:30:51] And if someone comes with a new idea, we normally discuss this internally.
[00:30:57] So a week of comments from whether we think there's chance in the market.
[00:31:02] Is there, can you sell it?
[00:31:04] And we are how big is the potential then the producers, can they build it?
[00:31:10] Is it possible to build the designers?
[00:31:13] Yes, as it makes sense.
[00:31:15] And the team riders, they have to test it and verify that it's really working in the end.
[00:31:20] And this goes round and round till we think we have a product that
[00:31:26] is ready now for production and to sell in the market.
[00:31:32] So we call this like the innovation triangle.
[00:31:36] And that's how we develop.
[00:31:40] Yeah, so sometimes I want a product that is just needed or the team riders they come up or yeah.
[00:31:49] It's smaller.
[00:31:51] Just like these two corners that come up with new products.
[00:31:55] Is it in wings or boards or foils or even harnesses or harness lines?
[00:32:02] Or sometimes very small things like ear protection for the helmet.
[00:32:08] Oh yeah, that's true too.
[00:32:09] It's like, yeah we do a lot of small details, a lot of improvements in details.
[00:32:16] Like sippers this way around or like yeah, we try to make the product better and a lot of
[00:32:26] inputs come from the team riders.
[00:32:29] And while it's a myth that they spend probably six hours every day of the water with doing some
[00:32:37] water sports activities.
[00:32:40] And was that your question?
[00:32:44] That was good.
[00:32:44] I liked that.
[00:32:45] I like the in-depth look at how that happens, that fascinates me especially
[00:32:53] being the host on the show.
[00:32:54] It's really nice to be able to learn as much as possible and then everybody else who listens
[00:32:59] in they want to learn too.
[00:33:00] So no, I appreciate that.
[00:33:02] Is there anything you can share that's behind in development?
[00:33:06] Maybe some ideas for us to see what could be coming in the future development?
[00:33:10] Is there anything and if not that's okay but just kind of curious.
[00:33:14] Well, I mean we are, I think we are at the very beginning of that sport so we will see a lot of
[00:33:21] changes like we just, yeah.
[00:33:25] And from our side we, at the moment the design software for a wing is like everybody's using
[00:33:39] the same software and it's actually coming from the kite industry.
[00:33:44] It was just adapted to designing wings and we work on a new software like
[00:33:55] more updated software where we can simulate air streams and the goal is that
[00:34:04] when we work with new fabrics we can already implement like tensions,
[00:34:10] stretchings and things like that.
[00:34:13] We want to reduce the amount of prototypes we build.
[00:34:21] In the back you see our X-Bly wing, the score of limited edition.
[00:34:28] I think we produced 80 prototypes just for this wing to make it work
[00:34:38] because everything was new.
[00:34:39] The material was new, the stitching was new, everybody had problems and we
[00:34:47] just could not get it right or we were not happy with what we had so we made lots of prototypes
[00:34:53] and because we could not simulate airflow, air streams, turbulence, we just had an idea,
[00:35:01] build a prototype, tested all the water and came back with a feedback.
[00:35:06] But we never really knew exactly what it is and that's why we came up that we need better
[00:35:15] software and we work on that and very very promising and we are in a lucky position
[00:35:23] that the company is interested in supporting this so we just give the inputs, we can design it
[00:35:32] and I think that is going to revolutionize a bit the designing of new wings
[00:35:43] for probably 20 or 25 years.
[00:35:45] It's not ready yet.
[00:35:47] Yeah. So this is something that is going to change the industry I think
[00:35:54] and there's a lot of things going on with fabrics for the wings.
[00:36:00] Like we saw the Alula now, everybody is using Alula which is a great new material.
[00:36:07] It is horribly expensive, very expensive, very very difficult to
[00:36:14] in the factory to make a good job but it's an extremely good product, extremely fabric
[00:36:21] for making wings and there are lots of other good fabrics.
[00:36:28] It's already there. We just have to find it, we just have to find the right thing
[00:36:33] and we do a lot of tests with Patrick who is doing that, our fabric engineer.
[00:36:41] He comes from the paragliding and so we do lots of testing with threats and how to produce it
[00:36:52] and I think there will be a lot more in the future like the Leading Edge fabric
[00:36:59] and the Canopy fabric, lighter, more durable.
[00:37:05] Yeah this is I'm sure this is something we will see in the future
[00:37:10] and then yeah the wings are getting more and more performant like yeah they're
[00:37:19] take off earlier, you can ride them longer with stronger wings and they're faster
[00:37:26] and yeah a lot of things is going on there. So we are like
[00:37:32] investing now in new designs, in new fabrics, we're testing new fabrics
[00:37:39] and like at new shapes we saw now lately in the racing in Italy with like a double Canopy wings
[00:37:51] it's like a Canberra sailing wings, very interesting.
[00:37:57] So there's a lot going on and at the moment there's a lot of development in foyer and it's like
[00:38:07] I think the forward development is also with the very beginning so there's a
[00:38:12] lot of development there. Oh yeah there's a ton in both and what do you think about that new
[00:38:19] kind of stretch-free material and what do you think about those wings jumping in
[00:38:25] because there's an entry level price for wings that's about maybe $800, $600 up to
[00:38:31] maybe $15, $1200 Canadian or American kind of thing in that ballpark? Yeah but these new materials
[00:38:37] are almost doubling the price like what do you think that'll if yeah I guess what are your thoughts on
[00:38:43] that? Yeah we had that discussions we also actually our limited edition wing is a 2000 euro
[00:38:50] retail which is crazy and the Alulah wings they're going to be even more expensive I think
[00:38:59] and there's also always the questions is it do we need that and who is going to buy it
[00:39:06] first of all there's always people they're ready to pay more for the best wing for the most
[00:39:13] performing wing so there's always people that want to have the best possible thing
[00:39:18] and yes and the second is all the development and it's coming from that so we learn a lot what we
[00:39:31] can do with a stretch-free material with the Alulah you can design a wing in completely new way
[00:39:41] like there's not stretching it's more accurate so we as a brand we learn a lot with this new material
[00:39:52] and this is coming will come down in price at the moment the quantities are small
[00:40:02] it's hard to get to find the producer that is producing these small quantities we use for
[00:40:07] for the wing industry or for real but the price of all this good material will come down I'm sure
[00:40:14] and this is just this is innovation this is development and yeah we always try to do the best
[00:40:24] like I give you an example like boards everybody has problem with boards because it's the
[00:40:36] forces on this foil box on the board is insane like you jump high you land on a foil with a ladder
[00:40:45] reach one meter long mast it's carbon and in high speed so it's to build a board that lasts
[00:40:56] and is not breaking it's really difficult this is challenging and when when balds decided to ride
[00:41:06] also our boards the nc's boards he said all I asked for is a board that is trimming off for my jumps
[00:41:15] so we said okay we try to develop to build to decide a construction that is light and durable
[00:41:24] and solid as hell and we came up with a small board range very light and extremely solid and
[00:41:34] very expensive we did not look at the price and we have now a board which is like almost $3,000 in
[00:41:42] retail not many people are going to buy it but we need it for all our team riders
[00:41:49] balds is riding that board since January still the first board he has not broken it it's still
[00:41:56] in one piece he's happy and the good thing for us is we learned a lot how to build a board where we
[00:42:06] have to reinforce it what is important and can now implement that into our normal board line even if
[00:42:15] we're not selling it that we've been having not selling that many of that board but in the end I
[00:42:22] mean our first production was sold out after a few months so as I said there are always people out
[00:42:26] there they want to have the best available product and and the development comes from there so this
[00:42:34] is for us it is very important to not always looking at the price just looking of what is
[00:42:40] possible and then I mean of course we as a brand we live from from from from the
[00:42:46] from the products we sell so when we normally produce product the price is important but then
[00:42:55] like the pro and limited editions we we don't care for the price we just we just do what we
[00:43:00] think is the best or the best we can do with you that must be kind of nice though to work
[00:43:06] with that a little bit more no limit on there and just push that innovation can we touch
[00:43:12] on a little bit about how you're able to make a board that strong given all those tricks and
[00:43:18] all the crazy forces that are coming down from balls when he's throwing around and
[00:43:23] your other riders as well is there anything you don't have anything that you can give us
[00:43:27] his insights as to what maybe surprised you or well it's actually it you know it's it's
[00:43:33] not a secret it's it's like you know you just have to do your job well sometimes it
[00:43:40] it just have to do your job yeah and talk with people and and watching watching videos or watching
[00:43:47] riders and then analyzing broken boards and see how is it done and then talking with the factories
[00:43:56] with the manufacturer of what they could do and talking with a with a carbon manufacturer and tell
[00:44:03] them our problems that what is this our problem and what do you think and there is always solutions
[00:44:11] out there you just have to find it there's in our world I think everything is already there
[00:44:18] you just have to find it but everything is there and there's always a producer somewhere that has
[00:44:24] the solution to help you to do that you just have to find it and some of our
[00:44:31] members in the team they're very good at that especially Patrick and also at the board
[00:44:39] beside the Bernouin he has a lot of experience in building boards he's he's building his own board
[00:44:45] in his you know almost in his living room so he has got he has got a lot of experience in
[00:44:52] how to build boards and then you just have to find the right supply or manufacturer and
[00:45:03] sometimes I think it always surprises the focus it's always on the price everybody
[00:45:08] why it's too expensive and we cannot do that it takes too long and yeah but this carbon is so
[00:45:15] expensive yeah it is expensive and but it is possible yeah and just you just have to to try
[00:45:24] to do it yeah and you're Swiss so we expect the best chocolate and the best boards and the best wings
[00:45:34] yeah it's like yeah we are Swiss brand and we are sometimes we are very Swiss people say
[00:45:39] you're very Swiss so what is I mean Bernouin what is what is Swiss what is Swiss and at the moment
[00:45:47] there are some Swiss brands they they they come they promote like the Swissness and that
[00:45:55] yeah I think what what is very typical for Swiss that we are we want to do things right
[00:46:03] yeah and it's a wealthy country with high income so we are used to that we know that there are people
[00:46:14] looking for the best possible product in the market and we are not afraid of expensive products so
[00:46:22] yeah so this is probably a bit it's a bit Swiss yeah yeah that's nice to see you actually
[00:46:32] yeah I like that the whole entire thought process behind how you look at innovation
[00:46:39] that there's something available there's something there and then you just need to put those pieces
[00:46:44] together and your team is good at that that's nice it's a completely different mentality than
[00:46:49] a lot of just a lot of people right now from it's almost like that it's a that positive mindset to
[00:46:57] a lack mindset I like that it obviously that'll drive within our own like within people buying
[00:47:05] products it builds trust I find yeah I mean if we do a completely new invention there's always
[00:47:16] like innovation also means warranties so if you are very innovative you will have a lot of problems
[00:47:27] because you have to learn and you do things wrong and that's why I always say it is it must be
[00:47:36] someone else must have had the same problem already in the past you just have to find it
[00:47:42] and he has experience and sometimes you have to to test new things but if it is completely new and
[00:47:51] we have no experience then we take it takes us more time than we do like longer testings
[00:48:02] like with that board I we were pretty sure that it's good but like they were writing it
[00:48:09] for at least four months before we went into production just to make sure this it's really
[00:48:16] working what we thought it works it but it's justified to do some longer longer testings
[00:48:26] yeah and so we try to be innovative but like sometimes it's more innovative in a way
[00:48:34] that we are looking around what is in what what is there and then just bringing people
[00:48:40] and ideas together this is I mean this is anyway the key so
[00:48:49] many times people ask me what is where are you good at and not good at anything
[00:48:57] I just I'm just good at bringing people together and and find people that can do things well
[00:49:06] or better than me they everybody can do everything better than me I just bring them together and
[00:49:13] try to make them work together as a team and that is that that is probably the key of success
[00:49:21] anyway today yeah yeah and that's the key one of the keys um of being a good leader as well
[00:49:29] is being able to to develop that team cohesion and let their curiosity and creativity take off on
[00:49:34] their own naturally in that environment so that that's that's an important quality definitely from
[00:49:40] somebody who's who's steering the ship in in that regards like you are yeah sometimes you're
[00:49:46] not steering you're just floating but that's that's the freestyle in our industry and well
[00:49:54] sometimes you're not yeah you have to stop it and sometimes you have a good result but this is
[00:50:00] this is innovation yeah yeah true yeah true okay fair enough what um what was your first
[00:50:09] wingfoil session like um how did that make you feel and did you think it would turn into what it is now
[00:50:18] and what it could be in the future um and actually I had the first well when I saw it on insta
[00:50:28] I knew it this is going to this is going to be great uh like and then uh uh I realized that
[00:50:39] it's very easy to learn so you learn quickly uh it's uh not very you don't need a lot of power like
[00:50:49] wind surfing limits people because you have to be in a good physical in good physical conditions
[00:50:55] quite fit and the kiting is like sometimes quite dangerous and you need a lot of space like here
[00:51:03] in switzlet for example with lakes uh there are not many places where you can launch a kite and go
[00:51:10] out and the winging opens all these options you just you it's it's easy to learn uh you buy
[00:51:18] one board one foil one wing and it covers a huge wind range and almost all conditions
[00:51:29] so I really very quickly saw the potential of that new sport yeah me myself uh I'm not really
[00:51:39] progressing in that sport so I have it's like I say to my friends this is uh yeah I'm getting
[00:51:48] older so I'm learning very very slow but still I enjoy it that's and that's the key so
[00:51:55] you don't always have to be good at something to enjoy it you just uh it's uh you just the
[00:52:02] passion of flying with a foil it's the easiest way to use a foil I think on the water yeah
[00:52:09] what was your first flight like like how did that make you feel uh well I was used to foil
[00:52:15] because we uh I was windsurfing with a foil I was kiting with a foil uh we we did some foiling behind
[00:52:24] behind the boat behind boats like wake wakeboard foiling so I already knew the feeling of foiling
[00:52:32] and but then when I tried the first time with with the wing with the wing first wing wing for
[00:52:39] board uh yeah I it was very easy to to learn yeah it was the easiest of all the disciplines to
[00:52:46] to learn and I could fly very quickly like and all my friends they after half an hour they could fly
[00:52:54] and uh yeah it's I think it's the easiest sport to the easiest way to to learn foiling with
[00:53:03] a foil yeah I think I learned windsurf foiling and then as soon as I got the basics of windsurf
[00:53:09] foiling and then I switched to the wing and the wing just made sense yeah because I was switching down
[00:53:15] to a three seven on my windsurf because I wanted to flag the sail out and surf more and I didn't
[00:53:21] get the freedom that I wanted from windsurf foiling but some of my buddies out on the west
[00:53:25] coast on the island they love windsurf foiling and that's all they do so everybody picks their
[00:53:30] thing but as soon as I switched to this wing that didn't weigh anything and I was able to surf some
[00:53:36] swell with the freedom of surfing on that foil it was like whoa it just hit me and then that was
[00:53:42] because the wings don't weigh anything and but progression is really quick really really quick
[00:53:48] compared to windsurfing and kiting right like it's so fast it's yeah and it's like I mean in
[00:53:55] kiting you are tied with that lines and kite in the air and in windsurfing you have to the sail
[00:54:03] fixed to the board and you need a harness and within wing foiling it's just the board and the wing
[00:54:10] and it's so easy you're so free in your motions and everything this is this is this is new and
[00:54:21] I mean I can wing foil for for hours without the harness nothing you could not do that in windsurfing
[00:54:28] or in kiting so and this is great like this is yeah you feel it so like the feeling of
[00:54:40] you feel the wind that the water and everything yeah as you say like the freedom of your
[00:54:46] movements and everything yeah it's uh it's cool yeah yeah that's pretty sensational um
[00:54:53] is there anything new about your brand for 2024 anything new coming out that you'd want to
[00:54:59] chat about well we follow the mainstream in general so we I already talked a lot about
[00:55:07] what we are working on and like but this is like innovations and we never know when this is going
[00:55:14] to be turned into a product or when we go to launch but but then yeah we will come up with a downbeat
[00:55:23] board line where you're still wing wing foil oriented so light wind boards and there we
[00:55:35] also work on a three-star wing we were actually already working on a three-star wing more than
[00:55:42] a year ago like last year in in August September we tested the first prototype and we could not get it
[00:55:52] right so we forgot about it and now again like with new materials with what we learned in the past
[00:55:59] we can do now big sizes three-star wing that offer an incredible low wind power
[00:56:09] easiness of getting all the foil and getting up very very easy yeah um
[00:56:17] because out here on the like I'm out in Ottawa a little while with family in east coast of Canada
[00:56:22] and a lot of my buddies because it's lighter wind here they're looking for six through eight meters
[00:56:29] and they're all having that discussion of who should I buy from what eight meter or seven
[00:56:35] meter is good some brands that are more tailored towards wave sailing their bigger wings might not
[00:56:41] be as suited for that light range because that's not what their focus is on because I know they were
[00:56:47] riding the f1 um I think they had an eight meter f1 with some struts in there as well
[00:56:54] but it's it's it's nice to hear that because there's a lot of people who are super light
[00:56:58] wind and they need something yeah you know in the in the past we every like in the past we
[00:57:06] the biggest wing was six to what we what we offered and we always had the demand from the market we
[00:57:14] needed seven meter or seven point bigger wings for for light to ring for for uh uh bigger riders
[00:57:21] and we just could not make it we were not happy with stuff so we stopped at six two and
[00:57:30] this year we stepped up and we offered a six point nine which is a big step forward
[00:57:37] and it works but in the past we could not make it working so we then we did not offer it
[00:57:44] and now with the three struts we can control profile and and tension and the canopy everything
[00:57:53] and we can go up easily to eight meter and uh offering like a very very powerful powerfully
[00:58:01] and this is a this is a development yeah but we were just not able in the past so
[00:58:07] but now we we we know how how it works how how we can do bigger rings and this three struts technology
[00:58:14] is um is really helping a lot yeah this is this is this is great yeah oh glad to hear where we
[00:58:22] invest a lot at the moment is in the in school uh school materials cool gear uh so next year
[00:58:32] we come up with a complete school range boards and wings and foils everything to for schools and
[00:58:40] rentals to to uh uh to to make this board accessible to everybody like that is very easy
[00:58:49] to learn that you get the right material everybody and so this is we did a lot of uh
[00:58:57] lot of research in what is needed uh yeah so the different needs in the market you know like
[00:59:05] we always say it's like you have people coming from windsurfing they probably want uh they're
[00:59:11] used to a dacaboard board uh and uh people from kite schools they want to offer wing lessons
[00:59:19] that coming from the kite industry so we try to uh we offer for for for every rental for every school
[00:59:28] we we think we offer the right gear next year so we pay a lot of attention to make the sport
[00:59:36] easy for everybody and to guarantee a fast learning process yeah this is uh this is important
[00:59:43] so this is a big topic for for next year and um oh awesome one of for the biggest point is like
[00:59:53] as you're as you're from canada we are yeah we we're gonna we're gonna open up a warehouse in
[01:00:00] in mayani uh to offer better better availability in in north and south america so this is going
[01:00:08] to be a big point for us next year at the moment we ship from our european warehouse or from from
[01:00:18] from gina directly from supplier and as the market is growing we're gonna so for us that's
[01:00:24] a big step for next year and um yeah that's about it i already talked a lot about new
[01:00:34] new materials and things but this is i cannot tell you whether it's going to be ready next year
[01:00:42] or not uh it's still in progress and we're still doing tests and we are sometimes we are not the
[01:00:50] first with new ideas or so and my team writers they're very impatient like we i was talking
[01:01:02] about that new software where we design yeah so we we designed the first win a 5.2
[01:01:14] we produced it here in switzerland in a small in a small atelier and we just gave it to some
[01:01:22] team writers for testing and they said Jesus christ i want to have this i want it now and
[01:01:29] and when they had to give it back and say well this is a this is a project for 2025
[01:01:35] they were so disappointed that well do we have to wait till 25 years yes you have to wait till
[01:01:41] because it's just the first the first idea of what could be possible and they sometimes said
[01:01:48] well you're so slow but uh we want we tried to make things right when when we come up with new
[01:01:54] things so sometimes we were a bit slow but uh in the end it's it's also uh yeah that's when i launch
[01:02:03] a product from ncis i want to be sure that it is that it is fully developed and uh that is good
[01:02:11] and everybody has fun and it's reliable and things like that yeah that takes sometimes yeah yeah
[01:02:18] that makes sense yeah and i guess they have the same feeling as when we see something coming
[01:02:23] out on instagram or marketing is like oh we want that but then it's like coming out a little bit
[01:02:28] later i guess they have that feeling for a little a little longer than we do yeah yeah yeah but you know
[01:02:33] i mean they have to give us feedbacks and well but that's uh that's uh yeah that's
[01:02:39] they they can handle it yeah i did mention i was talking to a couple other recent guests
[01:02:45] and we just talked about the age demographic that's getting into this and then just the
[01:02:50] fitness component and even nutrition component that's kind of required to keep people to learn and
[01:02:57] learn because even for myself my knees were starting to bug me right away and and i found this
[01:03:01] knees over toes guy on the internet and started some different kind of exercise routine that
[01:03:06] alleviated some of that pain is there anything physical that you found that you've come
[01:03:11] across when you were learning that that could help people well compared with uh other windsurf
[01:03:19] action sports like kite windsurfing uh i think meaning i heard from some people they had problems
[01:03:28] with the with their back but else i have friends they have artificial knees and hip bones and and
[01:03:37] then problems with the shoulders and winning is still the sport they could practice so it
[01:03:45] looks like oh there you go so it looks like this sport is uh yeah it's just not not not so
[01:03:53] dangerous for for for your health or so okay fair enough no it's nice to hear because the demographic
[01:04:00] that listens the tunes in the most is 40 to 65 kind of plus and i'm just curious to see is
[01:04:08] because everybody has their own fitness routine it is super important especially for these sports
[01:04:12] to maintain a good level of strength and strength conditioning and all that i was just curious to
[01:04:16] see given you're a bit more in the industry but it's nice to see that people with some
[01:04:20] replacements are doing well that's awesome that gives me hope for when i'm 95 floating around
[01:04:26] well what i what i see like demographics is like we have a lot of kids like kids like yeah
[01:04:33] that's true too five six year old kids and what windsurfing is too hard for them it's
[01:04:40] the gear is too heavy kiting is too dangerous and winning is just perfect so i mean we we have a
[01:04:48] 1.8 wing which is the smallest wing and we use a lot of these wings because it's it opens options
[01:04:55] for kids very like kids uh five six year old so we see a lot of a lot of potential for kids and
[01:05:04] they love it because you can jump easily it's it you can do crazy things you go fast you get all
[01:05:12] these adrenaline hypes when you when you when you fly and also it's it's perfect for for for women
[01:05:22] for for girls and yeah that that is that is for me that is that is great yeah like
[01:05:32] when i go wing i'm in when i go windsurfing i'm the youngest in the group when i go winging
[01:05:39] i'm the oldest in the group so that's that's the difference
[01:05:43] it's yeah it's awesome to see uh because there was a drop in obviously youth getting into windsurfing
[01:05:52] and then same thing there's only certain people that go into kite but it is it's awesome to see
[01:05:57] a whole new generation of people now who are growing up with a windsport in their lives i think
[01:06:02] exactly like you had mentioned before starting at the bank realizing it wasn't necessarily for you
[01:06:08] but still looking for that security but it's awesome to see that wind is entering more people's
[01:06:13] lives because it impacts us in so many positive ways so that's pretty cool yeah i agree yeah well
[01:06:19] hey curl i want to say thanks a lot for taking the time today and chatting with me about pretty
[01:06:25] much anything under the sun um we'll have to have you back on thanks that was a nice talk
[01:06:30] now it's getting windy here i should uh uh it's getting darker soon so probably i get
[01:06:39] some time to go for a session yeah yeah that's uh that was the plan for tonight yeah we have to
[01:06:44] test some new uh new boards uh i'm i'm excited looking for that yeah thanks thanks for that
[01:06:52] absolutely and thanks everybody for joining us tonight and uh we'll see you next time