Episode #6 - Joost L. Buijs

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Wing Life Podcast, where we talk about wing-foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy this great sport. And we're live, Yost. Thanks for joining us tonight. Hello, hello Tom. Hey, yes, how are you? How's your day event?

[00:00:29] Pretty good. Mostly preparing for this. It's been a little bit slow in the shop for the last little bit, so it's been nice because I've got a few things to show here and I've actually had time to prepare for it.

[00:00:40] Good day. I hear you are the man that repairs anything, kite, wing.

[00:00:47] As well as dry suits. We also fixed dry suits for surface sports, being on Vancouver Island here. We don't have a season that we don't go in the water, so we also use our dry suits for the cold part of the year and we keep those in tiptoff shape for our customers as well.

[00:01:03] Oh, nice. Cool. But yes, we have Yost White and Wings. Maybe Yost will start with a bit of an introduction of Colmox Hyper-Pair.

[00:01:13] Yes, so I work in Owen Colmox, Kyrie Pair here. I'm the main technician at this time. My wife and I run this business together. I purchased this business from Greg Noles almost two years ago at this point and I've worked in many different trades before and I understand what it means to learn a trade.

[00:01:36] When I decided to work for Greg, I approached him and asked him if he was looking for an apprentice. The things that we do here is not something you can teach somebody in a week or two and then take over.

[00:01:47] So I was very lucky I actually worked for Greg for almost two years before I took the business over.

[00:01:54] And so I've been running Colmox Hyper now, if I say for a little over year and a half almost two years now, out of the basement of my own home here. I did a big renovation in the basement here to put the shop in.

[00:02:07] So I've got 1100 square feet of space down stairs here. I can inflate up to 17 meter kites inside and leave them inflated overnight. And then I've also got the outside yard as well for putting in bladders and spreading out to big Wings and kites. People still use 17 meters.

[00:02:26] People in Ontario do a parenting. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yeah, this should have gone away with the fact that hydrophils came out but I guess they haven't yet. Well, I'm not a hydrophilic or myself so that's an interesting point. You're absolutely right.

[00:02:43] You the efficiency of the hydrophil in the lack of drag are completely changing, you know, the sport entirely, but there are those guys who still want to write a twin tip or a surfboard and if you're a big guy then sometimes those bigger the bigger gear works out for them.

[00:02:57] So yeah, that's true. Yeah, they are they are good kites. What have you seen or I guess what are you working on this week?

[00:03:08] Well, things are getting a little bit slow in the shop here which is kind of nice. We work pretty hard throughout the summer. I work about 10 hour days six days a week and often have up to a month waiting list here to get work done.

[00:03:21] So the nice thing about this time of year is we catch up on those things and right now and basically I've got a couple of customer jobs on the go.

[00:03:29] I've got a strike wing on the table here behind me for a canopy repair has an eight inch tear from the foil that went through it which is pretty common. And but mainly I'm working on warranty repairs right now so I do work closely with Ocean rodeo.

[00:03:43] You see it's on the shirt here, but the reason for that is we're on the same island as Ocean rodeo they're down in Victoria and we're halfway up the island here in Colvox, Courtney area.

[00:03:54] I was a wind surfer in Victoria years ago and so the designer Ross, Ocean rodeo and Richard are people I used to sell with that cook street in Victoria in the 90s. So we have a personal relationship with them and work quite closely with them.

[00:04:08] I get all of their warranty return kites and wings and so I've got about 40 different kites and wings right now that I'm fixing up to get into condition to be able to resell.

[00:04:18] That's really cool that that's their policy to instead of scrapping the stuff that's under warranty to get you to fix it and then resell that that's a really nice thing that they do.

[00:04:28] Well, it's really good for a couple reasons the majority of the materials in kiteboarding are not recyclable so unless you see somebody making grocery bags and and wallets and things like that out of kite material a lot of it just ends up in the landfill.

[00:04:42] So to be able to keep it out of the landfill and then get a few more years of service out of it makes a big difference.

[00:04:47] Absolutely I mean I worked in the wind industry for quite a while and it's it's pretty sad to see how much stuff goes on warranty that you know it should be covered on warranty because it's a manufacturing defect and it's not cool for a client to pay full retail price and then get something subpar but at the same time like that doesn't mean that that needs to go into a landfill or that it's not repairable.

[00:05:09] So I don't get me wrong. I mean there are things that are not worth repairing and you walk away from and you know you cut your losses but there's a lot of stuff exactly in that that scenario where the customer.

[00:05:18] Expect to something a little better and then the company looks after them and then what you do with the leftovers so. I'm very lucky and fortunate to be the first choice of ocean rodeo to pick up this equipment to be able to sell it.

[00:05:28] But again, not everything is worth fixing and selling either some of these. A Lula repairs on some of these 17 in sorry 17 meter kites by the time you replace the bladder and are fixing some of these these are large terrors you know 30 inches long on Lula and leading edge.

[00:05:45] They're quite costly to repair some of these repairs can add up to about 600 bucks by the time you get it up to flyable condition again. There's an economic factor in there you know whether it's worth it or not.

[00:05:56] So the canopy scene is it worth putting back into circulation isn't risk having 600 bucks on the fix so. So you're before we I think we dive into the whole Lula stuff because I'm really excited to hear what you have to say about that.

[00:06:13] I'm kind of curious what kind of repairs do you most often you said that you've seen a lot of foils through canopy repairs. But what else do you see.

[00:06:24] So canopy repairs it's something we see a lot of if it's a really large territory generally comes into the shop. The nice thing about small canopy repairs which are the the most common issue a lot of people can deal with that themselves at home with tape.

[00:06:38] And keeping on eye on the on the tear and ensuring that the tape isn't moving so those don't always come in to see me.

[00:06:45] The other ones that see a lot of that people can't deal with at home very easily is a terrorist of the leading edge whether either is to your spot or to the leading edge of the wing or the kite.

[00:06:54] So that's what we basically specialize in and of course the whether it's a kite or for a wing doesn't make much difference but that leading edge is under a lot of pressure and so to be able to fix that properly. Re-require some specific skills in the tools.

[00:07:10] And so what's size of a canopy repair would you start saying that kind of needs to come into the shop and be stitched.

[00:07:17] It's not just the size of the canopy repair but it's also the location in the canopy where it is and directions of tears make a difference too.

[00:07:25] So, I'm going to talk about a kite is pretty much no different than a wing in this regard but the first third from your leading edge going from your leading edge to your trailing edge.

[00:07:37] The first third at the front of your wing or your kite is called the center of effort and that's the area that produces the lift or the pull that keeps us going on the water.

[00:07:46] And that's generally the area of the canopy that's under the most tension as that's where the the pressures are focusing. And so anything in that area that's going to load up significantly the bigger the tear the bigger the concern in that area.

[00:08:02] If you've got a larger tear out towards your wing tip where there's not as much going on it's not as big of a concern as if it's closer to the leading edge and towards the center of the wing or the kite.

[00:08:13] So if you're looking at something towards the center of the wing or the kite. We're pretty fussy about it here so you probably could take on bigger tears than what I would and get away with it if you babysit it and keep an eye on it.

[00:08:27] But basically anything over a centimeter or two in my opinion should have proper patch on it and sewn into place. The reason for that is take holds really well for a very short duration. Tap as terrible over long duration stress.

[00:08:43] There it doesn't have a very good resistance to sheer so it will pull and move and that's why I say you should babysit your tears if you put tape on them keep an eye on them and just make sure that it's not moving.

[00:08:54] So it's to sew it in really locks that that repair in place and will part me I got a little spider coming down here and see me. So if you sew that in that will prevent the sheer issues and will help through the the long duration of stress.

[00:09:09] And then when you have the really momentary like if you slam the wing or the kite, that's when the tape will do its job. Okay and so just to just to kind of help maybe to everybody at home.

[00:09:22] If you're how would you know when your babysitting that that it's time to retake for example, are you looking at the edges and kind of see if there's glue lines where it's stretched or what are you.

[00:09:34] Pretty much exactly what you're saying there that's right so when you put the adhesive on the patch it generally leaves a little bit of a snail trail where you originally put it on and you can see what's moving.

[00:09:44] And yeah basically that's the idea obviously the cleaner you get the surfaces before you put the tape on and if you tape it on top and bottom it's going to have a longer lasting effect.

[00:09:55] And these are great in the field repairs if you're at you know some destination you've got two days left of winging and you don't want to deal with with out of wing for 24 hour period or longer depending on how long the repair guys busy for that might save your holiday or something but do recommend getting it looked at and probably fixed after that.

[00:10:16] Yeah and what do you think of those that kite fix product so it's it's a little bit more than tape right it's got some fibers in there stuff as well. Do you find that that's a bit more permanent and not really.

[00:10:28] I think it works well if you don't have access to a decent kite repair facility. I was just looking through the kite repair kit yesterday actually I was doing some organizing here so I was having a look at it and the one that I have here.

[00:10:40] It seems quite thick and I think it's more intended for a background patch and it's an iron on product is that when you're thinking of Tom. Yeah yeah exactly.

[00:10:50] So it works really good for for leading edge repair but there are some issues with it so it's an adhesive base that's an iron on it's a hot melted adhesive.

[00:10:59] You heat it up and it becomes malleable and gets into the fibers of the leading edge or the canopy whatever it is you're repairing.

[00:11:06] But our canopies as well as our leading edge have some films on them and some chemicals on them that are meant to get rid of water not so water up.

[00:11:16] And they don't lean themselves particularly well to a piece of sticking to them as well so again it goes back into how well you're going to prep the area.

[00:11:24] Now my concern is when somebody doesn't iron on patch or the other one I've seen it's almost looks like something out of a body shop it's like a fibrous thing that you put on there and you put a glue on it afterwards like a shoe goo or something.

[00:11:36] That might save your vacation but it's going to make my job afterwards much more of a pain in my butt.

[00:11:42] And unfortunately when things take longer I charge more money because we are basically work per hour and that can make your repair a lot more expensive down the road if something has to be revisited for if there's other damage very close by in the same area.

[00:11:57] Yeah, fair enough so you have a bit of a love of hate with those repair type gets because it's kind of like.

[00:12:03] Tires lime you know if you're stuck in the desert and you've got a function to tire you throw that slime in your tire it seals the whole but your tire is no longer repairable anymore and.

[00:12:12] It might save your your day but you might have to buy a new tire sooner sooner so it's. Six to one half a dozen of the other.

[00:12:20] Okay, so your preference should be to see some sort of a sticky bag back on tape and once you can get to a. Reputable repair shop that's the that's the real solution.

[00:12:31] That is the real solution but unfortunately like on your leading edge for instance if your tear is in the wrong direction or a significant length stick on background tape is going to be pretty useless.

[00:12:41] And if you're lucky enough to have only put a small slice in your leading edge and not damage the bladder. And the tape doesn't work properly it could potentially turn into something really awful as well completely splitting wide open and rendering the water use this well so.

[00:12:56] You know if you're on Maui and you've got that perfect swell coming in and you don't care it's worth it then you know I understand go for it but.

[00:13:04] That you're regular home spot and it's kind of a mediocre day maybe don't use the those types of repair materials and get your head into a shop or wing.

[00:13:13] Yeah, okay so if it so it sounds to me like if it's a canopy repairs those backgrounds think of backs and you know try to save your session if it's a leading edge. Unless it's like the session of your lifetime probably should just bring it into a shop.

[00:13:30] So yeah our general rule here is anything on your leading edge more than one centimeter in length does deserve a proper patch.

[00:13:38] If you happen to again going back to wings if you talk go the wing and sort of the kite if you talk with a kite and exactly spot where that one centimeter.

[00:13:46] Terri is and the kite goes down really hard and it you know loses it shape and and trying to do as better. And your tears right here and you start doing this to it the terror could have a tendency to run away on you.

[00:13:56] So anything over one centimeter yeah you agree it should be sewn and tape properly but something you can do that would limp something along like that and if you're pretty proficient winger or citer and the chances of you slamming your equipment are a lot less you can also put a background patch on the inside.

[00:14:14] It's a little bit awkward most equipment still has a zipper left in it for putting the bladder in and out of the leading edge and you can usually I'm five foot 10 and I've got pretty decent size hands I can still fit my hand inside most zippers and then I'm able to put a patch on the inside.

[00:14:29] The advantage to the patch on the inside is that the pressure from the bladder as it's inflated will actually push the patch in place and help hold it in. Yeah, that's a great solution I agree.

[00:14:41] Yeah, so if it's a centimeter and a half or less that's a good way to go it also makes a difference to depending on which way the terri is so. We're talking about a cylinder here I'm just going to hold this roll the tape up.

[00:14:53] If your terri is in same direction as the line that's bad if your tear is this direction that's much better and that's due to the forces exerted on the cylinder.

[00:15:04] A lot of people don't realize that the and I was again really lucky to learn from Greg as I said earlier I treated this as like an apprenticeship.

[00:15:12] Greg my mentor that taught me all this stuff is a university trained mechanical engineer he's got a master's in mechanical engineer industry.

[00:15:20] And so his ability of math and pressures and those types of things are quite ridiculous and so he taught me right away that pressure on the cylinder. And so the answer conference is twice the pressure is it is going towards the ends.

[00:15:34] Okay, so you wouldn't necessarily have you rate that down for us. Break it down for you for us mere models. Yes, so for some for basically what it means is if.

[00:15:49] If I have a tear in this direction like this black line here by my finger it's going to be under twice as much tension pulling that tear apart as if it was vertical. Okay, okay. Does that make sense? Yes, yeah, that's what it is.

[00:16:05] Yeah, and that's just a function of pressure and a cylinder and how that works and that's again something regular in university or probably before that.

[00:16:12] And just something we don't think about so a lot of people on my leading edge is torn first question I ask is what direction is it in.

[00:16:18] And most people like who cares what direction it's in while it actually matters what direction it's going to change how I'm going to repair it.

[00:16:25] So for me if I'm repairing a long tear you know along the this direction here I have a different sewing pattern than I used it and if I'm doing a vertical repair.

[00:16:37] And again just because I know that those forces are twice as much as they are in the other direction. Okay, okay, and then you're also mentioning as well that the pressure. It dissipates as it goes out. Yeah, I'm glad you asked so yeah, we all know the term.

[00:16:55] And we're in you know we inflate our wings to 7 PSI or whatever and that's a you know summer little higher summer the lower doesn't really matter. Now we give it the flick right near the inflate valve when you have the nice ding ding ding.

[00:17:07] And what a lot of people don't necessarily notice is if you go towards the wing tip where the diameter is significantly reduced you don't get the same sound. In fact, the wing tip is quite malleable in comparison to the center of the the wing or the kite.

[00:17:20] And the reason for that is again the PSI so I'll bring my trust your old tape back out.

[00:17:27] So if this is our leading edge and this is at our inflate valve at our widest point of our kite or wing let's say that this is 16 inches around just for a number.

[00:17:37] So 16 times 8 PSI, and I'm not great with math on the fly but whatever that number is so if you have you know 16 square inches around here and each once pushing out at 8 PSI.

[00:17:48] And I have more than if this is three inches around and there's only three square inches around the circumference does that make sense. Yeah so you're saying basically the larger the circumference the more inches or so is there.

[00:18:02] Yeah, so there's more square inches in and a larger circumference and there's a smaller circumference.

[00:18:07] So and for that reason if you look at a wing or or a kite when it's inflated if you squeeze it out the center where it's at its widest it's very tight and taught everything there.

[00:18:17] The wing tip things are quite malleable and you can move them around a little bit.

[00:18:21] And again this becomes a factor because especially in wings I'm noticing now some of these wings the wasp, particularly I could think of the slingshot was it wasp was that the one of the first wings that came out.

[00:18:33] That's no that's from ozone the wasp but yes that is a model. I can't remember if it was on or the slingshot but it was on the first wings that we had in the leading edge on it was just tremendous I mean it was huge.

[00:18:48] And you're still pumping that thing up to 8 PSI and I mean this thing was. Like honestly like this my allula.

[00:18:56] Cites are like this so I inflate the allula kind of 7 PSI and this guy is inflating his wing up to 8 PSI you can imagine with that circumference how much more force that background is under.

[00:19:07] Oh yeah absolutely which is absolutely you know at the the edges of what we can do with those products.

[00:19:15] You know, background I don't think we can make anything much bigger and inflate it for those PSI's we have issues now with how we close the leading edge and and other scenes when they start to.

[00:19:25] Effectively integrity of the background you know when she's starting that big and diameter. It's you're really maxing out what you can do with that material and you're on the verge of exploding honestly.

[00:19:38] So if I if I understand what you're what you're saying so if it's a smaller circumference then it can take a bit more pressure.

[00:19:48] Yes I believe so so yeah okay mathematically I mean that makes sense and then you know when we start to get into newer materials that have different properties our traditional numbers really sort of go up.

[00:20:00] Yeah the only tricky part about it is that as much as the larger diameter takes more it generates more pressure as you're saying or more force on the background. It also mechanically has a much better rigidity over the length of absolutely a creep stiffness there's no doubt.

[00:20:20] Yeah so it's it's kind of a balancing act and I guess that's why at the end of the day mostly leading edges and most struts and they're being at a relatively similar diameter because.

[00:20:31] There's limits to what you can do well and it also changes your your airflow I mean the bigger the leading edge less efficient it has to be I mean you're creating a larger amount of drag at the the front of your wing.

[00:20:43] That that has to point a little less sort of looking for here it can be as efficient for pointing. I'm trying to you're angle of attack can't be as tight because you stall out the wing faster.

[00:20:56] Well and I think you're going to create more drag to with with a bigger airfoil like that. Yeah definitely definitely.

[00:21:03] I think it's been interesting with wings because I know coming I used to kite cut a bit before and you know certain kites will have very thin leading edges not let you point up one really well.

[00:21:14] And you'd have the wave kites so we'll have these really big fat leading edges to help the kite drift.

[00:21:20] But in winging you know the only interest I can possibly think of a powering elite of thick leading edges to have a stiffer leading edge because in terms of drifting you really don't need that thick leading edge to help the kite fly anything makes it worse.

[00:21:36] So in that regard getting into you know a little material is what not you can really go quite thin diameter without losing out on the drifting ability and then you know you have a much more efficient airfoil tricks at much more.

[00:21:48] And then you can pump it up to the higher pressure too so.

[00:21:52] If I recall again like say we were closely with Ocean rodeo and when I start talking about their new materials be honest with you I don't have all the information here and a lot of the new materials are also in development so.

[00:22:05] You can't necessarily take what I say as as. The word of law or anything on it but I've heard back in the very beginning when they're playing with the Lula that they were pumping things up and leading edges seem was could hold up to 30 psi.

[00:22:21] Wow, that's the same. Yeah, so if you can reduce your your leading edge diameter and then regain the stiffness by by adding pressure. I think that's a design improvement and and something that we haven't been able to do because the materials haven't allowed us to do that before.

[00:22:38] Hmm, for sure. And I mean if you get into things like a Lula then you're also because the material is so stiff and because it doesn't stretch the way the background does you can reduce the lead the edge even without you know adding pressure and you still have a very rigid frame.

[00:22:57] I remember trying the first version of the. Lula wing the the glides from Ocean rodeo and thinking that it's kind of a shame that they kept such a big leading edge because I found the wing to be almost too stiff. If you inflated it to a normal PSI.

[00:23:14] I actually believe that. Ocean rodeo has done a bit of publicizing lately on their new wings coming off 2023 and they've actually got a new product coming on I can't remember if this one's coming on the 2023 or not but graph light.

[00:23:27] Which is basically like a black allula and I believe the idea there was to soften up the wing tips in the wings a little bit. Okay.

[00:23:36] Yeah, because there's definitely something to be said you know you do want the wind to be stiff you want that leading edge to not.

[00:23:44] You know, deform and taco and you but there is something to be said about having a bit of a whip and the wing tips and how it just makes the wing more stable as it gets gusts and makes it easier to pump.

[00:23:55] Yeah, there's definitely something to be said for that. Yeah, there reminds me of the old. I know like. I remember the old the wind surfing sales.

[00:24:03] Yeah, in the 90s and I don't enough downhaul the the talk would get a little bit loose so you could bleed off some big gusts exactly we don't want everything used to fire. No, this is the same issue with the kites too.

[00:24:15] I mean when when we steer a kite we're actually deforming its shape. But in order to get it to turn so there needs to be a certain forgiveness in that leading edge to allow that deformation to initiate turn.

[00:24:27] We talked a little bit for those at home about DIY repairs. What is what is there about just to take care of your wing so if you I know we talked a little bit when I came to the shop of it sand about.

[00:24:43] Making sure water is out of it all that kind of thing but maybe we can go over some of those kind of tips and tricks for people at home.

[00:24:49] Yeah, absolutely so there are a few and regionally it makes a difference to where you are as to what your kite or wing has been subject to so.

[00:24:57] I mean, the reason I say that is I'm on the west coast here salt water is an issue for us here not an issue for the guys in Ontario obviously but people do travel and go to different destinations so it's definitely something to think about.

[00:25:09] We'll talk you first about salt water salt water is great it makes us buoyant.

[00:25:15] But the problem with salt water is that salt in it so you can't drink it nice thing about middle of the lake when you're hot in the middle of a summer session and dive in and get a big gob.

[00:25:24] The salt water the water evaporates and leaves salt crystals behind. And salt crystals are very very sharp if you look at them under a magnifying glass you'd be really surprised how sharp salt crystals are.

[00:25:37] And so as they like said the water evaporates the salt crystals remain inside your bladder if you've gotten any salt water in there.

[00:25:44] And it takes a little time to let me wrong I mean it's not like you did the sun sunday and you're going to have salt crystals by Monday morning or something but as you inflate the wing and deflate it.

[00:25:53] Every time a little more moisture will get taken up with that air ambient air as it leaves the wing and at some point it will be dry and when you start folding that wing up that's what we start to see the problems of the salt crystal starting to.

[00:26:06] And I'm going to concentrate through the the bladder material in multiple places. I had one here little while ago it was a bladder in a ocean rodeo rise kite and it somebody had pulled the inflate valve on out in the water.

[00:26:21] This is a scenario that happens a lot with kite schools. I probably don't see it happening as much with wings because I don't think you're always teaching from the jet ski quite the same way and and.

[00:26:30] I think people weigh down wind and then having to bring them back and deflate equipment but yeah the equipment gets deflated salt water gets into it. And school pumps that up and keeps going and those are the ones that I see it on the most.

[00:26:43] Sand as a comparative it's not good to get it inside your bladder usually happens for people putting their hose down in on the ground as they're unfolding things and they put the inflate.

[00:26:54] And then that sand gets transferred inside but if you look at the sand under a microscope not quite needed but to under magnifying glass. You'll see that the edges are very rounded on sand so it doesn't have nearly the same effect when you're folding the kite.

[00:27:09] But sand can be a problem if you happen to step on the wing or the kite on the leading edge and they're sand in between the bladder and you step on it. Very likely put a pinhole on it at this point.

[00:27:19] And this is becoming more of an issue as bladders are now a source of weight reduction as well on equipment. Again talking about the ocean rodeo stuff they've developed a thinner bladder to help reduce the weight of these kites and unfortunately really reduce weight on a bladder.

[00:27:36] It doesn't make it stronger it does require a little more finesse.

[00:27:41] So as far as how you can take care of it when you're putting your hose on your inflate valve some people you know we're very excited we got to the beach we just drove through traffic that wasn't going nearly fast enough.

[00:27:52] And you will two hours to get there. Yeah, lights fading or not by fading but you only got an hour and a half to get out there so you want to pump quickly and a lot of people just jam their inflate hose onto their.

[00:28:04] They're inflate valve and the problem with that is the back of the inflate valve depending on what you have can be quite hard plastic. And if you're mashing that on there and their sand or salt crystals in between you got the other side of the bladder behind it.

[00:28:18] It's very easy to poke a hole in there.

[00:28:20] Okay, so I always tell people you know make sure your hose is clean before you inflate your kite and I always lift my kite up and put my inflate valve on and then put it down I don't just mash it on there on the ground.

[00:28:34] I'm also very careful where I lay my kite out before I inflate it same with the wings. Our local beaches here have a lot of barnacles and broken shells so you do want to be cautious where you put it. And those are some of that that's clean for.

[00:28:49] And then I think the one that most people probably could be better at is taking their equipment down when they're done using it. Yeah, I've seen this other question.

[00:29:01] And and and kites come in from guys who don't have that many hours on them in the canopies to seem far too many UV hours.

[00:29:07] The sun is our biggest enemy when it comes to our equipment really I mean if we're smart about sand and salt and other maintenance and carry issues. Sun is our next biggest problem.

[00:29:18] So I see a lot of guys you know love and tana down south will go a kite for an hour and a half.

[00:29:24] He comes in he puts his kite down or his wing down throws his board on it all of his buddies are on short talking about how great the session was here's your beer. And two hours later he thinks oh I should go get my gear off the beach.

[00:29:37] Don't let your stuff sit on the beach and flap.

[00:29:40] It's great for me I sell equipment. I love it when people want to buy more stuff but if you want to get your stuff to last a longer wrap your lines up for us kiders obviously not you wingers but it was wrap your gear up.

[00:29:52] As it's sitting there flapping in I mean it stretches it out the UV is hard on it and your board is likely sitting on it to hold it down although I notice a lot of you wingers just like to use the leash and find a sign or something to strap the leash to and then the wings are sort of flops there little bit which probably not great for it either but.

[00:30:10] I've had so much abrasion on the boom and on the wind tips and it's just it's no good.

[00:30:15] I totally agree I think if you're if you're not going back on the water within the next half an hour to an hour that that should be deflated and put in the shade.

[00:30:23] Yeah, and then if it's not going to be for it to be even if you are going to go back out you know how we put equipment on it to wait a down makes a difference to see a lot of guys will take a twin tip board and put it on their kite and the pressure focuses on the fins.

[00:30:38] Through that canopy material onto whatever's below it and we don't have that many 70 beaches here it's usually pretty rocky and that's how you put most of your pin holes in your canopy materials we're putting your board on it.

[00:30:48] And I can imagine that's not much difference in winging except you guys are putting your boards on slightly different of course because you've got the foil to be to be aware of and not what through the canopy. So I don't have to look okay.

[00:31:02] So something I've seen often people doing is tying up their wings onto their boards leash attachment point because that seems like an easy place to tie it but then leaving the foil up wind and then you have the board then you have the wing so what's going to happen if the wing starts pulling the board is just going to flip and then the foil gun vertical and then bam foil right through the wing.

[00:31:26] So usually what I like to do with mine is I'll put the foil downwind and then attach the wing to the foil and at that point you know you have kind of a sad anger from the foil wing.

[00:31:38] Kind of digging in and there's no reason for your equipment to fly on top of your wing.

[00:31:45] Yeah, I've had that happen. I was coming in at China Creek and obviously I was holding but that's one of the only tears I've gotten in the wings is because it was just.

[00:31:53] Gas come in holding similar situation in the sense that you have to be aware where wind is coming. I had a question, you know it's about if you have to keep your wing in the sun.

[00:32:04] Now I started deflating mine a little bit just so that it was less pressure eyes. Is that what you recommend if you just have to leave it in the sun for a little bit.

[00:32:15] Well, I guess I mean it depends too. I mean if you pump it up at 630 the morning and you know the temperatures gone up 20 degrees and you did it in the shade and then the sun comes out.

[00:32:22] I imagine it makes a big difference. You know from 11 o'clock in the morning to 3 in the afternoon, I don't know if it make a huge difference but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt by any means.

[00:32:32] I mean all these materials do stretch out and such again my biggest concern when it's not in use is that it's not flabbing.

[00:32:39] So for me, dropping the pressure sounds like a great idea makes sense to me. But again a couple airbags so that that canopy is not flopping around and I think it's an issue probably more so for you wingers than the the fighters in that your wings are only good for so many hours before they're bagged out.

[00:32:56] Yeah, again, we're doing this relatively new sport but I know I heard a year ago or a year and a half ago. Guys on certain wings were like, you know this this wing is great for the first 100 hours.

[00:33:07] Yeah, that's a generous. Honestly that's generous it depends on how heavy you are and how hard you're pushing your wing but I've got to go back out after one session.

[00:33:17] You know if you go out really overpowered and you're really pushing what the wing can do there's a visible difference in the shape of the of the sale. One session. Wow, yeah, we're not going to mention brands.

[00:33:31] Yeah, we won't mention but yeah I found the ones that I've had no no. I mean for that we're going to actually happy did it because the canopy was a little too flat so it was nice that it bagged out a little.

[00:33:42] But yeah, it's pretty insane how fast it can go. So definitely that that's our biggest enemy.

[00:33:49] But I agree that the flopping is terrible it's just the worst thing you can do to material apart from dragging it through sound and sitting in the sun the flopping is really, really bad.

[00:33:59] One for me I've always been a budget fighter so I you know if I did buy a newer piece of equipment.

[00:34:04] I wanted to be able to sell it for something too while still worth something and those wrinkles are very visible on the trailing edge on the on the. You know, kind set of sat in the sun for too many hours. And you can't hide that.

[00:34:16] And okay, so you know if you're that that lawyer doctor surgeon guy that you know just buys a new piece of equipment every three or four months and you don't care what you get for you give it to your neighbor your kids going to ruin it and you know who cares but.

[00:34:28] For the rest of us that that money is an issue and money is an issue for everybody but. Yes, that are trying to you know squeeze a little more out of it. That makes a big difference to your pocket book at the end of the year.

[00:34:41] That makes sense and then so I guess talking along that same kind of realm putting your wing or kite away now especially with wings because sometimes you'll have one valve two valves.

[00:34:53] However, that thing is set up are you leaving them deflated meaning sort of the wing the the valve open. Now the ocean rodeo and the KTs they have that screw on valve the strikes have the push button valve.

[00:35:06] Do you recommend deflighting your wing and then closing the valve and then wrapping your your wing up or leaving him open that depends on the valve that you have as well.

[00:35:16] So you did mention the the KT and the ocean rodeo valve that one in particular I definitely put the the valve back in in the screw it in just a few turns after I've got the majority of the arrow to it so actually fold the kite or the wing right till I get to the center point I've squeezed all the arrow then I'll actually put that valve in a few turns.

[00:35:35] The reason for that's two reasons for that obvious one that people think of is so you don't get debris inside. That's really important but number two is on the inflate valve the portion the female portion that's attached to your leading edge.

[00:35:49] If you look at it closely there's a there's a raised ring in the center of it and the rubber part of the inflate valve seats against that that's a ceiling surface.

[00:35:58] The hard part of your inflate valve if it's just sort of pressed up against the the female portion there can actually indent that and cause a pathway for air to leak.

[00:36:09] So I've seen that quite a few times actually you know you do the whole kite up with soapy water you don't find anything you finally look at the inflate valve closing realize oh that's where it's where it's leaking and that's why because the valve was stored loose.

[00:36:22] And a hard portion of the valve contacted a part of that it shouldn't have and deformed it now when we're talking about traditional or the older style like the the 9 and 11 millimetre inflate valve like I have here.

[00:36:36] This one you definitely want to leave open as well as if you have the sort of this is the 9 mil.

[00:36:41] There's also the deflate valve that's that's this style like on a lot of do a tone and you want to leave that out because if you put the plug in here it's going to stretch the plastic portion and if you leave it out.

[00:36:52] It'll regain you know it'll maintain its small size when you put the plug in it will actually do its job. I mean, it's sense.

[00:37:02] So on this whole topic of taking care of wings and how to avoid damage we got a question on the chat from Andre and Paul about in the winter. I don't know if you guys do any kite skiing or anything like that.

[00:37:18] Do you have any tips for how to not how to best take care of your wings and kites in the winter? So the biggest issue that I'm hearing about the wings in the winter for kites is not a big deal we don't have a window in them generally.

[00:37:33] But the windows that they've been putting in the wings work wonderful and tropical destinations but they become very brittle in our colder climate here.

[00:37:41] And the windows have a tendency of cracking if if you fold them incorrectly or unfold them to quickly or not even if you do it incorrectly, it's just a function of the of that material getting really stiff in the cold so if you're going to do winter winging I suggest finding a wing that does not have a window in it.

[00:37:59] Yeah, I'm so they and I think in the infraded in your hotel room and put it in your van inflated. Walk out to your spot.

[00:38:11] Are there any other parts of the wing that we should be concerned about in the winter canopy leading like any of that stuff kind of rubbing around obviously any kind of if there's ice crystals and stuff that could tear all it's a little quickly.

[00:38:23] Yeah, again, it really just boils down to the surfaces that you're working with and of course the the big issue with snow is things don't stay in one place you know the wind comes up it's possible to blow it down the the lake or whatever it is here you're on that's frozen that you're working with.

[00:38:37] I do suggest just folding it out a little bit more gently and stuff. Okay, whatever but as far as that the only thing I can really think of that's an issue in the winter is those windows that thick.

[00:38:48] Okay, plastic really does not handle folding very well in the cold at all. Jennifer earlier had a sorry go ahead Tom and yes or what one last point on that.

[00:39:00] Those valves those older style valves that you showed I've had issues with those in really cold conditions so we're not talking like minus five but if you're minus 20 or minus 25.

[00:39:13] I've had issues with those valves either ripping or kind of getting you know deformed pretty badly so I would definitely say if you're. Winging in really really cold conditions and you have one of those deflate valves.

[00:39:28] Maybe blow some warm air on it before you pull out the before you pull out the cap and that'll just soften up the material a little bit and it makes it less likely that you'll tear off the top less likely that we'll break the valve.

[00:39:43] Yeah, or hold it in your hand or something like you're saying absolutely. Yeah. Okay, here Jennifer had a question can you store your wings in your car from most of the winter does it matter if your wing is always cold material anything. Anything like that affect the longevity.

[00:40:00] All right, so I've been fixing kites for three and a half almost four years now and so I don't know everything. I would really like to ask my my sense a Greg that question but everything that I'm hearing about vehicle storage is always referencing warm.

[00:40:15] He does our problem not the cold and the reason for that and again, it's less of an issue with with wings and it is with kites.

[00:40:22] But we have a real problem with valve delamination at some point due to aging and the heat in the car will definitely accelerate that.

[00:40:30] So, okay, which you don't want to do is keep your wing in the back of your car on a summer day somewhere where it's going to be really hot.

[00:40:36] You're better off if you have an option to put it in a shady spot under the vehicle or something like that. Have you more concerned about my summer storage than the winter.

[00:40:45] Yeah, I do think that in a long term situation like you're talking about Jennifer about leaving it kind of all winter in your car with the material being cold and kind of cycling hot cold hot cold from when you warm up your car as you drive it.

[00:40:59] That might cause some wear potentially maybe, but it's mostly when your material is cold and if it's sitting in the back of the car and you toss something on top of it or it's getting crushed.

[00:41:09] You might be getting some folds in there that are the materials not going to love. So, I think that would probably be the biggest concern about keeping it in the cold, but if not, I mean wings are pretty small and pretty light.

[00:41:23] I think tossing it in the house is probably your best move and then any circumstance. And maybe bladder as well, right? If it's sitting there at minus 30 or something and yeah, and then you talk about your hockey skates on it or something. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:41] Or even if you go to pump up a wing that's been in minus 30 forever, like potentially that could do something as well.

[00:41:47] Brian just had a question here, do you recommend us to use some tuck tape or clear gorilla tape on the wing windows to prevent cracking when folded. Let's get some dressing. Good question Brian.

[00:42:02] Are you talking about like some damage you already see or you talk about preventative altogether? Oh, both mostly preventive. I live in Vancouver Island. So we had our cold snap yesterday of minus, sorry plus plus two. Oh yeah. Amazing.

[00:42:24] Honestly, I think for me if I was winging in really cold winter and I had one of those big windows in it, I would probably try to find a way to roll my wing more than folding it.

[00:42:34] If you can roll that window around, you know, a nice big piece of cardboard or something that that's a tube of cardboard or something. That'd probably be the best for it.

[00:42:43] Not going to help you with your storage solutions unfortunately because it's not going to be very small that way but I think that's going to be the best way to deal with those.

[00:42:50] I think those windows are your thing if I remember correctly, but yeah those big windows they need to be rolled in the morning. Yeah, so I'm growing you said about.

[00:43:00] But you know, your tape trick might work. I mean it's definitely worth the try not a fan of tuck tape because it leaves an awful sticky mess behind afterwards.

[00:43:07] You don't want to be happy to me last winter and I put the tuck tape and you still hold it. Actually, tuck tape will work. I just came back from my vacation and you still hold the night. In the ocean.

[00:43:21] Oh yeah, tuck tape is a great temporary repair. It's not a lot of fun for me after because I have to get the gluey, the gooey stuff off after it to make a nicer pair of it.

[00:43:30] But if you're somewhere and that's all you got. It works well. It does stick. Yeah. What I do is make sure you take that right because you'd ask to the wait.

[00:43:42] It does add to the wait. Now something I've thought about before too. Again, running a repair shop here is the option of removing a window altogether. If you have a wing that you really like and you do want to use it for cold conditions.

[00:43:53] And generally the nice thing with with the cold conditions is there's not as many people out so the need for the windows not the same as being in love on town. And when there's 350 people out and you really got to watch before you make your job.

[00:44:05] But another option is to remove the window altogether. Hmm. One idea for the fault for the rolling in winter you could use a large diameter pool noodle. And at that point it's nice and soft and doesn't kind of hurt the material.

[00:44:20] And if you cut it to the right length then you can still fold your wing in half and your windows stay flat, which is how you should be folding and rolling your wings anyway as you shouldn't be tracing the windows when you fold them because

[00:44:35] It's going to destroy them. Yeah. Iran has a question any recommendations on how best to pack up your wing, particularly way to roll or fold it anything to avoid.

[00:44:51] Well I was out to a citing on Saturday and as I said earlier in my shop here I've got enough room to inflate a 17 meter kite so I just. Are you an intermediate level wing foiler looking for an epic adventure this winter?

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[00:46:14] Make a big ball of my my my kite throwing the back of my vehicle make sure I don't close the door on it bring it home and hang it up.

[00:46:22] It makes a big difference on where you are so you know if you're on a sandy beach or something that's going to render your wing with a lot of debris and dirt on it.

[00:46:30] I would say just get in your car and get it home and deal with it on your grassy lawn where we've got a soft surface to work on.

[00:46:37] Okay, and then for rolling folding all that kind of stuff I think you had mentioned to me before I think I talked to with Greg about this as well as he had recommended.

[00:46:47] Packing it differently so that the creases were not in the exact same way every single time so one he would fold it like a taco another time you would roll it from one wing tip and go all the way across.

[00:46:59] You know that you see you would change those patterns is that is that crap.

[00:47:02] And that works really well on a lot of equipment when you don't have a window to deal with unfortunately with the windows on the wings it kind of leaves you like Thomas saying if you want to fold it properly there's kind of only one or two ways you can fold it where you don't fold the window so you're you kind of stuck with with with that a bit.

[00:47:18] Paul and Andre have another question we tried hydrophobic spray on the wing to stop ice in the other day is that a bad for the bladder do you think. I'm not sure what hydrophobic spray is now this is a great question Greg.

[00:47:33] Okay, so what we'll do as well. I'm guessing that some form of a DW are like some sort of kind of what is already on the deck on anyways.

[00:47:43] I'm using yeah I wouldn't think so either is that what that is Paul and Andre like some sort of like maybe a hard shell. Jack get you know waterproofing spray is that what you're talking about. Yeah so this is like trim clad makes these highly repellent.

[00:48:04] Materials that don't absorb water and when we're sailing in like one or two degrees Celsius we get icing on the edge of the wing wing actually falls out of the air like an airplane wing right.

[00:48:19] So we thought hey we'll try the spray and it seemed to stop I guess the ice seeding you know when ice seeds it become solid kind of stop that. And it may be modeled the surface a bit of the of the wing like the F one but.

[00:48:37] I don't know if it's bad for it, but you know it extends us down into colder temperatures. Is this Paul talking right now? Yeah.

[00:48:47] Paul you'll see here so the the the background traditional material we've been making your leading edges already have a chemical on them like Tom was saying that makes the water beat up.

[00:48:57] And that that chemical does wear off over time and so this probably not a bad idea to use a spray like that I can't see it harming the bladder I mean.

[00:49:06] I try not to use too much acetone if I'm cleaning a bladder, but I mean I can use acetone on a bladder and it hasn't ruined them yet so it's very pretty beefy the blotters biggest problem is any sort of sharp for an object and pressures in that regard but.

[00:49:20] They do do handle things quite well. Oh thanks.

[00:49:23] Okay one one thing that you should look into though is what is that spray meant to go on because I know that there's a lot of sprays like that that are meant to go on kind of a Gore text material or any sort of you know.

[00:49:35] Breedable membrane anything like that I would think you wouldn't have any issues but if it's some sort of a spray that's meant to go I don't know on metal or something like that maybe there'll be a chemical reaction with the background and at that point that could be an issue for longevity potentially.

[00:49:54] I'm. I'm just a question there to Luke. Jennifer's yesterday was showing if it's been the ocean good question Jennifer.

[00:50:08] There's a big difference between ocean water and fresh water ocean water we talked about the problems with the salt and stuff getting in your bladder but the advantage to ocean water is it doesn't mill do on your equipment if you.

[00:50:20] She put it away a little bit down so for me here having sailed on the coast for years you'd roll your wind surfing sail up at the end of the day you pull it out two weeks later and probably a lot drier but we don't have mildew and mold issues there might be some salt standing and such on it but that'll clear off the next time you crash anyways.

[00:50:39] But washing your equipment is never a bad idea especially with salt water and such but the key there afterwards is to make sure it's dry before you put it away. Okay.

[00:50:51] I've also heard from a number of manufacturers that they there's an issue with washing equipment with city water because it's chlorinated and the chlorine can kind of affect the canopy and stuff like that of you had that experience as well.

[00:51:08] I haven't heard that before it's a it is a good point you know we're definitely getting less and less chlorine in city waters. We've got a new water treatment plant here ourselves where we're we're at and it's all UV and such but.

[00:51:20] And again both the canopy and the leading edge both have a chemical on them that doesn't allow them to really become saturated.

[00:51:30] The nice thing with a brand new wing you know when it's really crispy in that leading edges when you do go in the water doesn't absorb any water because those chemicals are doing their job.

[00:51:38] So I can imagine that that would possibly negate some of the negative effects as well until it's you know after while your wing is not as crispy anymore and then it does start to absorb water could then start to become a bit more of an issue I would think.

[00:51:51] And I think the idea of the spray on clothing.

[00:51:56] GWR the water repellent product could be a probably a pretty good idea that that would help you could do that on the canopy and the leading edge and that would only just make the material more UV resistant and it felt water better so I think that's probably a pretty good move.

[00:52:15] Jennifer had another question here about older older kites. Do you know how long that material? I guess if we're looking from a nethical standpoint if you're going to hurt somebody by sound them something older now obviously there is some buyer be wearing anything you buy but.

[00:52:33] What are your thoughts on that yes. So when I'm a newer kiter I was a wind surfer up until recently I've just started citing about four and a five years ago I still consider myself a new kiter.

[00:52:45] And at that time I was a budget kiter and I was looking at used equipment so my first set of kites I believe are twenty thirteen's or twenty fourteen's.

[00:52:54] At that time I did do all the proper lessons you know at nith nat did some at a china creek and such.

[00:53:00] And the general rule of thumb that everybody was telling me at that time was anything twenty ten a newer is safer and that has to do with the safety systems and how we eject out of the kites.

[00:53:10] That they flag out on one line and that they're just generally a little bit safer.

[00:53:15] So 2009 2010 there's probably not a huge difference between those years but my bigger concern when you get to kites at that age and we talked about this a little bit earlier is delamination of valves.

[00:53:25] Quite often kites at that age don't hold air anymore or on the verge of the valves peeling off of the bladders.

[00:53:33] So in that case what I would do if those are my kites and I wanted to sell them I would pump them up for four or five hours or longer and ensure that they hold pressure.

[00:53:42] If they do that and they're generally in decent shape and you do have somebody who's a budget kiter out there that's looking to buy them I don't see why not I mean we would never that's a big difference between citing and winging.

[00:53:54] In citing I would never suggest somebody goes and watch the youtube video and goes out tries it on their own.

[00:54:00] Luke I understand you're an instructor I've seen you teaching a china creek don't you take money out of my pocket now yos is very big money and I'm not less than important.

[00:54:08] Well, I know the whole thing is important I mean teaching is going to speed up anybody is learning process and is going to make their time on the water more fun more quickly there's no doubt about it.

[00:54:18] But I wouldn't be concerned about somebody wanting to go out there and you know bash their head against the wall and try and learn it on their own like they might end up down.

[00:54:25] Wayne didn't have to do so walks but unlikely they're going to get themselves into a stupid scenario.

[00:54:30] Unless they they get a little happy with the foil one thing if it's a little off topic but one one thing this this summer when I noticed when I was teaching some people is actually snowboard stands versus kind of a surface dance.

[00:54:45] And the front foot actually make a huge difference in preventing that taco so when they're going into a attacker into a job and they're initiating their first turns.

[00:54:54] A lot of the time what happens I find is they go and then there's this turn and then they kind of turn backwards and they can end up getting close to foil so get enough topic but.

[00:55:04] They were yeah wing wing lessons I found they were I had to break down winging into something that may complete sense to me in order for me to be able to teach it and it was actually quite.

[00:55:15] It took a while it took a good season and a half for me to get a good lesson plan going.

[00:55:20] And to figure out everything that was going on so that could then relay that information and once you do it learning actually well learning speeds up quite a bit. But it's same with everything but I think you had some goodies to show us right.

[00:55:36] Yeah just just to wrap up that point if you guys all mind I think the I agree with you yours that sending out somebody would just want to show you two video on a kite is terrible idea and it's not just that they're going to probably hurt themselves they can also hurt others around them so.

[00:55:53] So that's a big distinction for me between winging hiding I agree with you. Yeah about the hydrophil get you know a little bit. Ouchy yeah but generous speaking lesson issue Jennifer just a last thought on that on those kites.

[00:56:09] I that whole 2010 thing is not just around the year there's definitely a reason that they say that I've been guiding for quite a while and I was a kite instructor before.

[00:56:21] And the safety system really did become much safer in that 2008 to 2010 range and the reason we say 2010 is because before that some companies had reasonable safety systems and some didn't.

[00:56:36] If you look at 2010 and later basically everybody had a reasonable safety system it's not as good as today but it's at least reasonable before that there was in you know there's some pretty sketchy safety systems.

[00:56:51] So that's kind of long as long as where like as long as your buyer knows that as long as your buyer knows that there is a little bit of that when you're selling some equipment obviously they have to do their own research but maybe that could be a point that you bring up.

[00:57:08] To them and I think Paul Nandrey mentioned that there was some cool wallets from a person who would sew it from bags and other products. So that would be kind of a cool thing to look at absolutely and you're welcome.

[00:57:19] We we make grocery bags and also in socks out of the ones that they're not worth fixing years so we do try to reach that's how we recycle kite material repurpose.

[00:57:29] I've seen some really cool rope bags for climbing made out of kite materials and stuff like that it's actually a really good material so it can be used for all kinds of things. Well absolutely. Yeah.

[00:57:43] Okay do we feel like we have time to get into these aluminum materials without love to hear all about. So yeah. So how are people feeling in the in the audience we got pretty responsive audience that which is awesome.

[00:57:57] What do you guys think do you want to go into aluminum materials or do we get yours back for another session and talk about. Oh, Lou. Then I'm game for either or so you tell me. All of a sudden they're not responsive anymore. Okay.

[00:58:16] I'm a bit like you're a bit for sure. Okay. Well I want to talk about it so. Let's just do it. Okay, let's just do it and of course we cut it and we'll do a little mini segment on of the stuff as a second podcast or something.

[00:58:32] So as I said, comox kite repair does work closely with Ocean rodeo we're on the same island used to win serve for those guys years ago.

[00:58:40] Ocean rodeo developed a new protocol that the loola that most people have heard about in the citing and winning industries it's quite revolutionary. It's way lighter and way stronger than what we were using originally.

[00:58:53] It got developed because basically the guys at Ocean rodeo sat down and said what are limitations in design at this point. And basically it was that we wanted to make things lighter and stiffer just like our win surfing years from years ago. Luke.

[00:59:07] So they developed a new material is actually ocean rodeo developed it I didn't realize that that's pretty interesting. Well, they are they were smart enough to start their their own standalone company. I mean, allula is its own brand.

[00:59:19] I believe it one the most innovative new product at the Germany outdoor expo two years ago if I'm correct again because lighter and stiffer has you know many more uses than just in our industry but this is where it started totally and so I've got a little piece of allular right here.

[00:59:37] You can see I put a little tear in it here a little cut and I also have a piece of background here as well. This is a standard piece of background I've just put a little mark here just to show where the tear is.

[00:59:47] And this is what we're making our leading edge out of wings and heights at this point it's about four ounces four ounce backgrounds what we refer to it as it's kind of the standard.

[00:59:57] And once you get a it's very strong on its own I mean if I'm pulling this way it's very strong but as soon as we get a deformation it or a problem. It terraces. Can you bring your hands up a little bit actually.

[01:00:12] Yeah, there's just a little bit low in the camera. No worries. So here's the piece of background you can see that it tears relatively easily. I'll take a piece of allula. I put a little cut in it. I can't finish the tear.

[01:00:33] Maybe if I get some pliers on it. For everybody that's a happy listening to this other podcast he's kind of turning red here and you know look like the rail on it's not working. So definitely looks like it's a lot more resistant than the background.

[01:00:48] So you can see it's quite deformed now after I've been re-fing on it. It's a little bit stretched and stuff but that tear didn't run all the way so that's the beauty of the alula it's quite a bit stiffer. Alula so.

[01:01:00] So, uh, background is 155 grams per square meter. Alula gold is 82 grams per square meter so basically half of the weight. And uh, I was just talking with the guys at Alula and they say it's only two times stronger than background but.

[01:01:16] I find that hard to believe because this is much harder to rip than the background. Uh, next time on how you define strength as well but yeah that looks like it's a lot more than two times stronger from from what you just did.

[01:01:30] Well, it is exactly what you say how you define strength so the the biggest misconception when Alula came out. Alula got led out of the bag a little earlier than they anticipated. Um, so there was a lot of discussion about it before we actually saw in the market.

[01:01:44] Um, and the problem with Alula is everybody's like, oh, it's it's so much stronger so much stronger. It is absolutely so much stronger. It's not more abrasion resistant.

[01:01:54] So a lot of guys assume stronger meant that they could abuse their equipment and drag it across rocks or barnacles and that it wouldn't have any effect. Uh, and fortunately uh, you can slice through it just as easily with the knife as you can background.

[01:02:06] Um, the nice thing is once you do get a small imperfection in it, the odds of it becoming a problem are much, much less.

[01:02:12] And then obviously the bigger factor is that it's lighter and stiffer in the first place so that you i mean generally a kite made out of Alula is half of the weight of a traditional made kite. So there's a huge weight savings there.

[01:02:24] Um, but that's not really material. We can now. Oh, and let's just, um, finish this like all in that so that's the half the weight are you talking about just leading edge and struts or we're talking about leading edge and struts.

[01:02:38] Uh, so Alula in the very beginning, um, it's not like they come up with a concept, uh, they make a product and then they put it out. You come up with a concept, you make a product, you tested in how you realize where you didn't go quite right.

[01:02:52] The drawing board, they've done this several times with these new materials. This isn't like the the first, uh, you know, go at it. I even saw a kite with a full Alula canopy at one point.

[01:03:04] I mean these guys were really playing with their their their their mixtures and and trying different things so what we're talking about here is the final product that is out on the current wings and heights right now.

[01:03:14] Um, but I we did talk earlier about ocean rodeo wanting to soften up the wing tips a little bit And so they've now got a product called graph light, which is basically a black Alula.

[01:03:26] Um, this product is still being finalized. It's uh, I've gotten some sample pieces here but it may or may not be exactly what ends up on the wings

[01:03:34] But I do have a piece here as well and I actually haven't done anything with this except that earlier today I put a little slice in it.

[01:03:40] So I'm eager to see how it tears and comparison to the background. So I'm going to give us one a little tug here too. It might rip right and half. I don't know if I've ever done this one before. Never mind. It's strong.

[01:03:53] That looks way stronger than the initial liven. Yeah, so this is the the black graph light.

[01:04:03] It's a little hard to see on on the video but it kind of looks like you have a much higher thread count and that block graph light than you do and the uh, and the regular.

[01:04:15] So yes, there is a much more coarse weave in the Alula than there isn't the graph light. It's uh, the fibers are closer together and they're smaller.

[01:04:23] Yeah, but this isn't even the stuff that I'm excited about what I really want to talk to you guys about that I think it's going to change winging is their new eras x canopy material that they're slated to come up with for 2023.

[01:04:35] I have a sample piece here. Pull it up nice and close to the camera. And what's really nice about this material is it has the traditional weave is up and down and side to side and then this reinforcing fibers on the 45.

[01:04:49] And that's going to make a big difference on your canopy bagging out or not. So as I said, this material is called eras x or ax38 it's their new canopy material. It's five times stiffer than traditional rip stop has a longer UV protection.

[01:05:09] And it should make our our wings last a lot longer and the same thing i'm going to give it a little attempt to tear.

[01:05:15] And canopy damages are most common thing you put your your your foil through or something like that. That's what I see most often on off and on wings and that's usually the end of your day, but if you can fix it some tape because your tear won't run any further.

[01:05:34] That's canopy material. I can't rip it. Wow to give you a comparison I have a regular piece of rip stop this is what can double double rip stop on this one. No, wow. Huge difference.

[01:05:55] Yeah, yeah I put that between somewhere between the original allule gold and the allule black somewhere in the middle in terms of how much you're trying to pull on it and how much it tears i think that seemed.

[01:06:06] Oh, absolutely yeah no you're not far off and it's it's a it weighs two thirds of traditional rip stop and the strength increase i wouldn't even be able to put a number on it.

[01:06:16] Wow, so you're at two thirds of the weight of the traditional canopy you're at a similar thickness it seems i mean it's hard to say again we're looking at it very. Okay and and we're wow that's that's impressive and how's the abrasion resistance on that.

[01:06:32] That's supposed to be better as well so yeah the abrasion resistance is better the UV resistance is better this the amount of stretches is better.

[01:06:40] Again, now these these products are still somewhat in development but they are supposed to be coming out with that on their canopy materials and the ocean rodeo wings for next year.

[01:06:49] You know if these materials are going to start to make wing last two or three times longer that's something i'm willing to pay for.

[01:06:56] Yeah it could be like you know windsurf windsurf sales right like 10 years of obviously that's pushing a little bit there but still like if they can last a little bit longer than definitely a bit of a price increase would not and not be as bad.

[01:07:09] Yeah I think that it's. Yes, sorry go ahead just so for getting something that we're paying for that it's not the end of the world but. Winging you know that the new equipment and the new materials have definitely pushed the price range look at.

[01:07:26] Yeah definitely I mean I think as you're saying look for wind surfing you can these days you can get a fairly decent service life out of a sale if you take reasonably good care of it.

[01:07:39] And if you think about it realistically how much of wind surfing rig costs not just the sale because when you're looking at a wing it's a full rig and it's the same for kidding really once you're out in the bar and the lines and all that stuff you know.

[01:07:53] It's pretty expensive. And then the wings have been quite inexpensive so far which is really nice for people getting into the sport and stuff like that and it is a smaller surface area so sure there's less material there they're actually pretty complicated to build.

[01:08:07] And I think that these these new materials are it's really cool that they're being developed that and not that's going to bleed back into height surfing and maybe one surfing as well eventually so that'll benefit those sports as well.

[01:08:21] It'll be a little bit elite and in the beginning but you know hopefully these things trickle down even with ocean rodeo they've got in your kite series they've got their HL series as well as their allula a lot of the allula technology went down to their lower model of heights so and allula kite is half of the weight of a traditional kite.

[01:08:40] And HL kite still saves you 25% weight so it's not quite the same weight savings but again some of that technology did filter down to the more affordable options so eventually it helps out everybody.

[01:08:53] I think that's what as wing designs you know improve and as we see smaller differences between year to year in the models it's going to start making more sense to you know invest a little bit more into a wing and say okay cool I've got this wing it's kind of worth great for the next.

[01:09:11] You know three years or four years or whatever because right now if a wing lasts more than two years it's so outdated compared to what's coming out.

[01:09:21] That it's almost not worth it to do that but I can definitely see not becoming more and more interesting as technology improves. Well the winging is still in the wild west phase you're a little bit right I mean when surfing through the late 80s and the early 90s.

[01:09:38] I think you guys are at that point right now. We have no idea what it's going to look like in four or five years from now. No. I think development is so fast compared to when surfing kite surfing because there's so much so much experience sorry.

[01:09:56] That they're taking from when surfing kite surfing and from other domains and just you know firing all of it at this new sport so. It's it's crazy to see what they've done in three years.

[01:10:07] It's totally crazy you know we've gone from a concept that kind of made sense and look really dinghy to something that's like a serious hi performance sport these days.

[01:10:19] We have I think we're more wingers at co-mox pit on Saturday then kiders at one point so it's definitely growing. It's only going to keep growing it's so much more user friendly and both hiding in one surfing and for now it's considerably cheaper as well so. Yeah, yeah.

[01:10:41] Talking talking materials, yes, Ron asked if there's any info on the end we find more. So I'm not particularly familiar with the end we've by north I have done some repairs on some of the SLS kites and such.

[01:10:55] Ocean rodeo developed the allula first there the first one to come out with it other companies do a tone has adopted allula.

[01:11:02] RRD is now making allula wings and a few others as well but there are other companies out there that are making variations of allula as well so it's.

[01:11:12] You know, it is a patented thing but you know as soon as you change the the formula a little bit you're you're not infringing on the patent so there are other materials out there that are similar to allula or similar concepts as well.

[01:11:23] And one are if the end we've as one of them as well. And again when we do start to get into these newer materials you know there needs to be some collaboration between designers and such to.

[01:11:35] You know work with the tricks and stuff and help each other out through the development of all this stuff and so I think there's some sharing going on amongst those guys. So that yeah for sure.

[01:11:46] And I think that we're far from optimizing these new materials yet there's a lot that can so be done in terms of design to.

[01:11:58] To really get the most that we can out of it I think we can get into blotterless eventually will them which would be really cool.

[01:12:05] Well, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you know we wanted to make things lighter and stiffer the way we're making them before and now we have these new materials we're still making the way before but with the new materials so.

[01:12:15] You never know how a design changes and stuff can take better advantage of these new materials. I did have one more item I'd like to show if that's all right. Ocean video plot as well. I apologize sure. Yeah, full commercial but did show off new materials.

[01:12:33] Ocean rodeo came up with some new hard handles recently for their wings. Oh, pretty. We've got two of our local riders on them already. What's really cool about these handles are they weighed the same amount as the webbing handles that are originally on the wing.

[01:12:48] And these are interchangeable with the wing already with the handles that are on there so if anybody does have an ocean rodeo and they like to upgrade to a harder handle.

[01:12:56] If you can get the handles because availability is obviously an issue, but they are out there and they retrofit onto the old wings. I also understand the newer wings will come out with the handles as well. I'm going to do a little commercial espn.

[01:13:17] If you can show us the connection point a little bit better on the curious and seeing that. Okay, so it's still you're still working with the webbing connection. I've got this point. So you know, supply and has been a real issue for the last few years.

[01:13:38] I'm still waiting on footstrap since stuff productions are still a problem in China from COVID. I have a feeling that these handles were a concept long ago and due to production are finally becoming available.

[01:13:50] So I don't think this is a new idea on their part just you know, we should talk about this for a while for sure. Yeah, all the companies have been doing the best they can with the supply that they have available to them.

[01:14:04] Yeah, and unfortunately with I think from what I've been hearing China is going and is still on a super. COVID which hunt for now as well. So if there's any COVID at all, they just lock right back down.

[01:14:17] So I think we're going to keep seeing these supply issues for a while unfortunately. Yeah, I think so too. For somebody who already has ocean rodeo wings. What did those handles retail for? You know, I'm actually waiting for a life motion rodeo on that one.

[01:14:34] I don't remember I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you on that one right now. Okay, thanks anyways. Don't worry. And like I said, they will become a standard with the new one so won't be an add on option.

[01:14:46] So there's only going to be a few people that are going to be after those types of handles because they'll be standard in the future. And they look fairly small. Yeah, they weren't very big. Yeah, they're quite small actually coming from wind surfing background.

[01:15:00] They feel very small compared to a boom or even the handle on my bar for citing. So what I like about that is I think they're going to work well with gloves and things as well.

[01:15:08] So if people who are snow snow winging or are going up cold temperatures. If you do want to wear gloves, you're not changing the diameter up to a point where you're going to have that fatigue in your grip.

[01:15:19] That's one complaint I've had so far with the harder handles as their diameter has been significant. And you can feel it relatively quickly on those farms. Now, Paula and Joy asked also can wet suit have liquid seam seal be repaired.

[01:15:39] So I don't actually work on any wet suits here. Basically because my sewing machines are not able to sew through neoprene and such properly.

[01:15:46] So where our repair is a strictly limited to dry suits but basically I think there's a couple different glues out there that you can touch up those seams with. Pardon, I'm just going to grab the glue here. Sure. Yeah, I believe all who seals should do the trick.

[01:16:03] Now also I'm grabbing that liquid seamer talking about I guess is on an excel. West suit on the inside I think. Yeah, okay.

[01:16:15] So, uh, aquacil makes several different products for different types of repairs and the key to that would be to make sure you have a nice and clean and get a good dry. Use the correct product and I'll see give it good time to dry afterwards. Okay.

[01:16:32] That sounds like a good idea. Yeah, just did I do a clarification on that ball in the Andre the liquid seam that you're talking about is that the excel liquid seams where you have that kind of. Uh, rubbery band on the outside of the seam.

[01:16:49] Yeah, yeah, a lot of companies are doing that external like billabong has them and it's seen and and our gloves we're finding aren't lasting long that scene gets compromised that liquid seam on the outside seems to get compromised.

[01:17:04] And I don't know if there's a product I know aquacil but I guess that's inappropriate substitute for the factory seals that are or. Our sailing right. I think that's going to be your best option. Okay, great. Yeah, I agree.

[01:17:26] I actually find a knee-up ring gloves really change my diameter on my grip so I can't handle them at myself at all. I basically use mountain biking gloves now when I'm getting you know five and six degrees.

[01:17:37] It doesn't add a lot of diameter to the grip and it still keeps the window if your hands a little bit. I think the thing we're seeing to with winning climbing on boards a lot, you know they have knee patches on what suits.

[01:17:51] Yeah, but the elbows are kind of breaking the meal preen and now you're suits leaking a lot sooner because your elbows have pushed through the where there should be knee patches.

[01:18:04] That just is that just a patch repair in a standard way but I really think if wingings becoming a thing they should probably have you know like knee pad types of patches.

[01:18:18] I think that's absolutely you know those those points that are prone to damage and stuff should be built up a little bit stronger. I know the ocean rodeo dry suits that we deal with.

[01:18:29] They had a couple different styles of suits going from light sport use right up to almost the. Military style and absolutely the layers of over the bomb and over the knees on the heavy duty suits is way different than the the economical.

[01:18:47] At least the most of the time I think it's a very point suits. Oh, we had lost time for a second here. I think Tom's back but I think I'm back yes okay. Okay. Thanks for sharing all that new material.

[01:19:02] I was able to see a little bit of a bit this summer was on the island now one thing I did want to mention or talk about is the fact that that one material you're supposed to roll it right you can't fold it the new stuff that was coming out was it more folding sorry rolling down.

[01:19:17] So so I read something about the to that set the airs X new canopy material and I'm just going to grab you my sample piece I have here.

[01:19:24] So yeah they're talking about rolling it up and possibly changing how we put our way or equipment and because he's talking about rolling it up. And they sent me a sample I thought I'd beat the crap out of it so you can see my sample piece here.

[01:19:40] That's a wrinkles and crinkles. I mean, I've been treating this terribly. Yeah. I've been doing a lot of things.

[01:19:53] I've been listening to this to this as a podcast he's basically crumbling it into a little ball like a tissue which is basically the worst thing you can do to imagine material. So I haven't had anything flaking off of it yet.

[01:20:06] I'm going exactly what I'm not supposed to do with it, which is kind of a fun thing to do. But I haven't noticed any degradation yet and to me it seems like something I could fold traditionally but obviously those guys have done more repetitive testing than I did.

[01:20:18] I have on it and that's a recommendation I've done both it. I think you little too would probably benefit from rolling versus holding. Have you tried to put any creases in it and see how that reduces strength deterioring?

[01:20:35] Haven't done that yet, but I should do it like folded repetitively and same spot or something and see if that makes a difference quite. Yeah, or like if we're in half old, will the weight on it or something. I don't think it's going to make much difference.

[01:20:47] I mean, with the fibers going on the different angles and stuff, I mean that thing can handle tension just about for many direction. Yeah, okay. And it's I guess it's some sort of a mesh of fibers that's got kind of two laminates on the outside.

[01:21:02] It's kind of thing though kind of an an excellent way. So yeah, so the trick with the the Lula and stuff what sets it apart is we're actually not making a new material. It's we're using existing materials, the trick there is how they're laminating and bonding it together.

[01:21:17] And that is the the secret part of the Lula. I mean, I'm not aware, but either I don't get to go in their office and see what the chemical compositions are, but the trick here is not that the materials are new because they're not.

[01:21:29] Their materials are got around for a long time, but trick is how you put them together and how you get them stayed together. So about that's what's new with the the aeros X as well as the Lula material from my understanding.

[01:21:40] Yeah, that's exciting. There's so much cool stuff coming up the pipe and stuff that will be.

[01:21:47] The one thing about winging that it was so stoked about is that we are getting to see where at least I'm getting to see that kind of progression through all that like I miss when surfing so.

[01:21:57] It's kind of it's kind of cool to see this kind of progress like that and then so much. The writers have changed everything's changed and things are going so fast, so that's been one aspect of it that's been super fun.

[01:22:09] Well when you own a repair shop in your biggest job is fixing canopies and then somebody comes up with a non terrible canopy material. I'm not sure what to say. Yeah, we pretty excited about that. It's not good for me. You know what?

[01:22:25] The way the only way of managing to tear my wind so far has been getting washed and the fall going through them and I'm pretty sure it would still go through that kind of human too. So you're still going through it, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, anything big enough.

[01:22:43] Yeah, sharpen off it. It'll go through but nice thing is you know with the traditional canopy material you get a hole like that and you're either done for the day or or you're going to rip it the rest of the way and then I think.

[01:22:53] The rest of the way and the nice thing with this is you know, you're not going to have to babysit your your tape patches as much and it should make a big difference for keeping people out on the water. Well does anybody have any questions for you.

[01:23:12] As we get up to the hour and a half mark. All right. Well, it's not like you every especially to yours but also to all the people that tune in today you've been really.

[01:23:30] Really involved and kind of asked lots of questions and it's been a lot of fun and I think it's made it much more interesting podcasts because you're so involved so thanks guys and obviously thanks so much to all this cool information and everything that's been really informative and really interesting.

[01:23:51] Super and I did have some gifts certificates to give away so we do a longer pairs here.

[01:23:57] I can weld the blatters, I can place blatters, I can put on inflate valves, I can soak canopies major terrors and struts major leading edge repairs anything like that we can fix here so we're a full service kite wing and dry superpair facility and I would love to offer my repair service some people who haven't needed it yet.

[01:24:19] I'd like to give away or do you want to pick Luke, where do you want me to do it. Oh, give you the honors good sir. Okay, I'm just looking through here who's signed in throughout the day.

[01:24:31] Well let's pick Jennifer Turley as a receiver of the gift card there. Okay, I'll let her know. Oh, hopefully she doesn't need it but if she does we're here for that.

[01:24:45] I think she's she's learning and getting into wingings so the chances are not you can repair pretty well. So, I'm sure she'd been pretty stoked on that. I've needed several so far. I think I'm only fixed yours one seven.

[01:24:59] You fixed yeah you will you fix this year is just once and then I had an original strike that.

[01:25:07] I had a little bit of an accident with as well at trying to creek I was walking in and then a weird gust came in and flipped the wing over top and landed on the foil and that was enough to go through it.

[01:25:18] But yeah, only only twice so far so pretty lucky. Even though the white boats have been they've been the craziest white boats that were hard for hilarious. But they are they are way earlier than actually when surfing catapults can get pretty crazy too.

[01:25:34] But you'll just be flying in your your foil comes out and then boom stopped and like at sand banks back in Ontario you'll be on something that's three four feet.

[01:25:45] And then you're falling getting whipped forward falling down that it's been so you definitely learned quickly how to how to surf and not to surf but.

[01:25:54] If people are going to get ahold of you, you've used and ask you some questions and then hire you for work what's the best way for them to reach out to you.

[01:26:02] I've got a Facebook page, co-moth, kinder pair that's an easy way to get hold of us there through there you can message us through messenger my email address is j-o-o-st at co-moxkite repair dot c-a. That's good way to do it as well.

[01:26:18] I'm much better at sowing than I am answering the emails and stuff but I will get to it eventually. I can't all be good at everything. No, but at least we know the repairs that are coming out will be awesome so yeah.

[01:26:34] Yeah, no we we really look after our customers in that regard any of our fabric repairs comes with a lifetime warranty.

[01:26:41] That's a real problem in the industry and c-aiding I see it all the time where people are looking for used equipment and I want to kite but it can't have any repairs and.

[01:26:50] I really doesn't make any sense because the repair methods that we used to fix your kite are the same methods that they used to build your kite. So you know one more row of sowing if it's done properly won't have a negative effect on your equipment.

[01:27:02] And so we try to do very high quality repairs here again all of our repair processes were developed by by Greg and his training as a structural engineer.

[01:27:12] And for that reason we offer the lifetime warranty on us so if you rip your wing in half and I fix it for you and you have to sell it in the next guy's home and in all in about it.

[01:27:20] I'm going to honor that repair to him as well so but something a lot of people don't do in this industry and we've decided to offer that.

[01:27:28] It's really easy to offer that type of warranty on your work when you know you're building it way stronger than it was in the first place so it's an easy thing for me to offer but it gives people peace of mind when they're either getting their equipment repaired or have to sell it again.

[01:27:41] That's really cool. Yeah, I think you know for for everybody that's in your area it's kind of a no brainer to get stuff repaired by you but even for people that are a little bit further away. I'm sure you are one of the serious repair.

[01:27:56] So people send us stuff from Canada post all the time this morning I went to the mailbox and I picked up a dry suit from Newfoundland.

[01:28:04] And lastly, I did some work for a guy up in the Yukon Alberta Quebec Ontario is quite regular we've even done work for people in California.

[01:28:14] We've done work for search and rescue on dry suits all the way from Winnipeg to here so with Canada post these days we've never lost a package yet and it works very well. Very cool.

[01:28:29] Because I don't think everybody would think of that but sending something now is as quick and easy and actually pretty affordable and at least they know that they're going to get a quality.

[01:28:38] Quality repair and if they're looking yet selling their gear afterwards, I think that would be definitely the way to go.

[01:28:44] Yeah, and it definitely makes a difference so like if you're dealing with a three inch tech canopy tear when you've got a guy locally that has a proper sewing machine that can actually give you a proper patch absolutely I mean go see your local guy.

[01:28:55] If you have something that's near an inflate valve or torn into the strut or something a little bit odd.

[01:29:00] Very few repair people and I reason I could say this is because I fix a lot of equipment that has been repaired previously not that I'm fixing their repairs necessarily but I always look at other repairs to sort of look at the quality and how it could have been done better or what did they do better that I could do better.

[01:29:17] Generally it doesn't happen very often again nobody has the same training there are no standards in this industry it's not like an automatic where you've reached a certain level and done your apprenticeship and written your read seal exam like these are generally the guys who are fixing equipment or people are self taught.

[01:29:34] And I have that really big luxury of having learned from Greg Nulls with his training and all of his methods of repair and he's been doing this longer than co-mox chyter pair was around he was looking after wind surfing equipment for his university sailing clubs and such back.

[01:29:50] I've got five different sewing machines for different types of sewing that I do here we use a different size thread for a canopy repair versus leading edge repair versus a different size thread if I'm closing your leading edge which requires different size needles there.

[01:30:15] And a lot of stuff that goes into this if you really want to do it at a high level to do it properly there's a lot of factors to consider.

[01:30:21] I don't want to take away from anybody else but again not everybody has the same background and training that I do so I'm very lucky to be able to offer these high end repairs and they definitely do stand out.

[01:30:38] Yeah absolutely I mean I have worked in repairing not sales but composite work and stuff like that and it's really you know for simple stuff as you're saying there's a lot of people that can kind of make a half decent repair once again into something a little bit more involved.

[01:30:54] There's really a right way to do it and not right way to do it and it sounds like you're definitely doing it the right way.

[01:31:00] Yeah absolutely I mean I've lifted strats off of a canopy entirely before to be able to do a canopy repair and then put the strut back on and you know if you don't have your proper alignment marks it to put it in the right place that kite's not going to fly the right way so.

[01:31:14] Again, also tips and tricks but I know most of them and the beautiful thing is I mean I've been doing this now for almost four years I don't know what all by any means.

[01:31:22] But I Greg just lives 25 minutes away and if I have a problem I'm able to give him a call or an email or send him a photo and he still helps me through a few of these issues and with his expertise and the experience that I have we haven't found anything we haven't been able to fix yet.

[01:31:37] Yeah I mean and you offering that lifetime warranty to anybody is proof of that right like she had kites coming back and you wouldn't offer that so. I think in our lifetime warranty I've had one come back in four years. Okay, yeah that's so to give people.

[01:31:57] So little bit of scope on what that means when you are buying new gear into your price you are paying for a 4% 1 to repair.

[01:32:11] So most companies will calculate that about 4% of the year is going to come back so if we're talking about one on four years worth of work and it sounds like you've been pretty busy I mean year at the 0.0000. So yeah that's fantastic.

[01:32:27] Yeah, no it and yeah fix it right up for that customer no charge whatsoever and get it back out there. Awesome. Well hey, you guys I want to say thanks a lot for joining. We're going to wrap up we're almost hey we're little bit over.

[01:32:42] We're getting work we're a little bit over thanks everybody for joining thanks. Yo, I'm looking forward to chatting again out almost I would love to see even walk through of the different sewing machines you have different needles that be kind of cool to look at that another time.

[01:32:56] Yeah I've got some things to talk about too so and definitely can I show some more things as well. No that would be awesome that would be awesome. Oh cool, I'm just coming back in.

[01:33:08] Okay thanks for having me on I appreciate it and yeah we're co-mox car and happy to help anybody that we can. Perfect all right thanks everybody enjoy. Thanks for joining Tom and I in this episode we hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time.