Episode #81 - Rou Chater (IKSURFMAG & Tonic Magazine)

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, we hope you enjoyed your holiday season and welcome back to the show. This week we have Roux joining us, the founder of Tonic and IKSURFMAGAZINE. We talked about his early start in windsurfing at the age of 7, how he transitioned to kiting in 2000, and how he was one of the early adopters of wingfoiling in 2019. We discussed stories of his incredible adventures and the evolution of water sports.

[00:00:28] We also discussed the importance of community in water sports and how it fosters cross-cultural friendships. And of course, we talked about how we started his magazines and what they have to offer us in 2025.

[00:00:43] Last week we had Patrick and Raham from Enzys on the show to talk about their brand new pair of wing. I just got mine here in Laventina this morning and already took it for a spin on land.

[00:00:55] I'm excited to give it a go this weekend. We have some really good wind coming our way. So make sure to check out this episode on YouTube because we added some great footage of the guys over in Switzerland either designing or riding this new pair of wing.

[00:01:09] Now, I want to take this opportunity to thank our team for making this show a reality. We have Frank that helps out with media and consulting. We have Matthias on guest relations and we have Stefan on audio mastering. A big thank you guys as a lot of work goes into each and every episode.

[00:01:26] Next, I'd like to say a big thank you to our sponsors. First and foremost, we are renewing our contract with Norfoils. So we are really excited to be working with those guys for 2025.

[00:01:36] We do have another couple companies that are sponsoring us. So make sure to check out wing life podcast.com forward slash sponsors to see who is helping us make this show possible week after week.

[00:01:49] Lastly, I guess we'll say it spring is on its way. And if you're looking to learn how to wing foil or pair a wing in a very safe and flat water location with warm water and no sharks, make sure to check out wing life podcast.com forward slash trips and come to Bonaire with us.

[00:02:10] CZN is partnering with the wing life team and we will be offering a trip May 4th to 10th. So make sure to check that out. Now I hope you enjoy today's show.

[00:02:25] Welcome to the wing life podcast, where we talk about wing foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy this great sport. And how do you print? Is it RU?

[00:02:35] Yeah, RU. It's short for Rupert, but I just spell it really weirdly R-O-U. It was a decision that I made when I was 14, I think, or something. And my sister came up with, why don't you spell it like this? And it just causes no end of confusion when people book flights and stuff like that.

[00:02:49] Someone once booked a flight all the way to Los, not Los, Rockes. What's the little island off Mauritius? Oh, Rod Rieguez. Rod Rieguez, little island about, well, three, four hundred miles off the coast of Mauritius.

[00:03:02] And I had to fly all the way there with the name Andrew on my pass on my flight, even though my name is Rupert on my passport.

[00:03:09] Unfortunately, that was pre 9-11. So I managed to do it, even though every check in they were like, this ticket isn't your ticket.

[00:03:14] It's the wrong name. And I managed to do it. You wouldn't be able to do that now.

[00:03:17] They would literally let you get away with that. Yeah. I mean, it was a long time ago, right?

[00:03:21] It was like back in the dark ages. That was like 2004. I think I did that. So yeah, but it's funny.

[00:03:28] So yes, it's Rupert. In this industry, Rupert's perhaps not the coolest name.

[00:03:32] And when I grew up as a kid, it got bullied a lot at school for it because it's kind of an out there name.

[00:03:37] But so it just go by Roo basically. But you pronounced it spot on Luke. No worries.

[00:03:42] And from you, like whereabouts are you from?

[00:03:44] So I'm in the UK. I grew up on the East Coast in a little town called Ramsgate.

[00:03:53] And yeah, there's no surf there, but it's good for wind sports and stuff like that.

[00:03:58] And then just recently, five years ago, I moved to Wales, which is the far west of the UK.

[00:04:04] So that's a little place called Pembrokeshire.

[00:04:08] And it is the most insane place for water sports I've ever been.

[00:04:11] So yeah, it's incredible.

[00:04:14] Yeah, yeah. There's nobody here. Have we started yet or not?

[00:04:17] Because I'm keeping my answers short to save you some time.

[00:04:20] But you know, I can roll into Pembrokeshire if you want me to.

[00:04:27] So it's this crazy little place.

[00:04:29] If you look on a map, you've got Cornwall, which everyone knows in the UK is like the wave spot, right?

[00:04:34] So that's where people go to go surfing.

[00:04:36] There's loads of surfers there.

[00:04:37] It's like 600 people in the water surfing in the summer.

[00:04:40] It's crazy.

[00:04:40] And it's the spot that everybody knows in the UK, that's where you get waves.

[00:04:44] And then if you look on the map above that, there's a peninsula that sticks out, almost identical kind of topography.

[00:04:50] It looks the kind of same shape.

[00:04:52] It's got, you know, north and south sides to it.

[00:04:54] So you've got beaches facing all angles.

[00:04:56] And that's Pembrokeshire, which is in the very west of Wales.

[00:05:00] And nobody lives here.

[00:05:02] Like, it's empty.

[00:05:03] So, you know, during COVID, we had some really strict lockdown rules.

[00:05:07] We weren't allowed to go anywhere.

[00:05:08] We weren't allowed to do anything.

[00:05:09] You had to be within a five-mile radius of your house for seven months out of the 12 months of COVID.

[00:05:15] Like, it was insane.

[00:05:15] It was completely bonkers.

[00:05:17] And what was even more insane is that nobody lives here.

[00:05:20] So you really struggle to catch COVID by going outside because you barely see anyone.

[00:05:24] It's just super quiet.

[00:05:25] You know, there's no one around.

[00:05:26] In the summer on a really busy day down at the beach, there's maybe 200 people or something.

[00:05:31] Whereas in my hometown, Ramsgate, there'll be 50,000 people on the beach.

[00:05:35] So it's just really low population density.

[00:05:39] But it's absolutely stunning.

[00:05:41] And we've got world-class surf, world-class wind conditions, world-class kite conditions.

[00:05:47] It's just insane.

[00:05:49] And there's nobody here.

[00:05:50] So in the WhatsApp group for kite surfing for the whole county, which is quite a large area, there's just 10 people.

[00:05:58] And they never really talk about going kite surfing.

[00:06:00] And they all live in this one town of Tenby.

[00:06:02] And that's where they go kite surfing.

[00:06:04] And, you know, I'm often the only person who kites surfing at the beach, just solo on my own.

[00:06:09] No one else.

[00:06:10] And it can be like double overhead, offshore waves, absolutely perfect.

[00:06:14] And you're like just going, well, there's everybody.

[00:06:16] But there's just nobody here.

[00:06:17] So it's good.

[00:06:18] The wing group, the wing WhatsApp group, is a little bit more popular.

[00:06:21] There's 57 people in that, which was mind-blowing to me.

[00:06:24] I thought it would be like 16 or something like that.

[00:06:27] So there's a few more wing foilers around.

[00:06:29] But even today, I was out with my mate Tom, just two of us out.

[00:06:32] You know, there's never more than like, you know, tens of busy day on the water, which, you know, compared to La Ventana or some of the U.S. spots, they must be, you know, pretty busy in comparison.

[00:06:42] So I love that about where I live.

[00:06:44] I love being somewhere where it's quiet.

[00:06:46] I like being on my own and, you know, getting in the water.

[00:06:49] So when I go somewhere now and it's crowded, like when I travel, I'm just like, oh, I just, you know, can't even face going out.

[00:06:56] I get spoiled.

[00:06:58] I'll be honest.

[00:06:59] I do get a bit frustrated here.

[00:07:00] There's a big kite pocket and wing pocket, obviously close to shore.

[00:07:05] So I'll end up kind of going around the bubble.

[00:07:08] And so it's kind of like an L bay.

[00:07:10] So I'm up here at Latuna kind of area.

[00:07:12] And there's a big pocket right here, like mid between Baja Joe's.

[00:07:17] And like, so I end up going around and going surfing on the beach.

[00:07:22] And there's always there's two or three of us.

[00:07:24] But every time you see a dude there, a woman there or something, they nod at you because they know that you went around the whole group to do this by yourself.

[00:07:34] Yeah.

[00:07:35] Yeah.

[00:07:35] I mean, he's good at fighting.

[00:07:36] Like you'd always find the kites, they sort of congregate in one little spot because they want to show off their lame slide turn or whatever it is they're doing.

[00:07:44] And all you've got to do is ride upwind 200 yards and there's nobody kiting there or downwind 200 yards.

[00:07:50] There's no one kiting there.

[00:07:51] So you'd always just go wherever it was quiet.

[00:07:53] And that was kind of my thing.

[00:07:55] You know, we did a lot of seasons in Cabaretta.

[00:07:58] Not that long ago, about 10 years ago, last time we were there.

[00:08:01] And yeah, the same thing there.

[00:08:03] It's like crazy busy at Kite Beach.

[00:08:05] But if you kite upwind to Kite Beach, there's nobody kiting and the waves are empty and it's perfectly clear and fine.

[00:08:10] And then if you go downwind to Encuentro, which is a popular downwind from Cabaretta to Encuentro, everyone rides down there and then gets out of the water.

[00:08:18] But if you actually just go there to ride, there's nobody riding there.

[00:08:21] And it's quiet and you get all the waves that you want and you're not fussing.

[00:08:26] It's a fascinating phenomenon.

[00:08:27] Like I don't I don't understand.

[00:08:30] And it's either side is good.

[00:08:32] It doesn't matter.

[00:08:33] Both sides are cool.

[00:08:34] But I just don't understand.

[00:08:36] It's the same as a parking lot where you'll go and you'll park on purpose three like spots over and then two people just snug up right beside you when there's like a whole empty lot.

[00:08:46] I guess we do miss community.

[00:08:48] And this is one good thing about these sports is it does help harness community and helps harness friendships and from people all over the world.

[00:08:56] And regardless of color or creed or anything or religion, it kind of brings us together because we have a shared passion.

[00:09:03] And we just had our New Year's.

[00:09:06] So I hope how did your New Year's go?

[00:09:07] Was it pretty good?

[00:09:09] Oh, yeah, we did just have our New Year's because this is happening in the future.

[00:09:13] Yeah, it's pretty good.

[00:09:14] I'm actually I actually when I went snowboarding in the outs for New Year's Eve.

[00:09:20] So no way on the 20.

[00:09:22] Yeah.

[00:09:22] Left on the 27th of December.

[00:09:25] I drove across from my partner and one of her children.

[00:09:28] And yeah, we just had an amazing time and the snow was fantastic.

[00:09:32] So, yeah, it was good.

[00:09:34] I heard you guys got like I heard you guys got like three feet of powder that day.

[00:09:38] I think that was sensational.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:41] Yeah.

[00:09:41] There's been a big dump.

[00:09:43] There's been a really big dump.

[00:09:46] It should be good.

[00:09:48] But yeah, I'm hoping I'm hoping that we have snow.

[00:09:51] They've had a bunch of snow in the outs.

[00:09:52] So last year I do a lot of snowboarding as well.

[00:09:54] Last year wasn't a great year for the outs.

[00:09:57] It was it was pretty ropey.

[00:09:58] And I think I did three three trips last year and got pretty skunked on all of them in terms of snow.

[00:10:06] Like the first trip was a splitboarding trip with some friends and it was just ice.

[00:10:09] And everything in the backcountry was kind of unrideable and just pretty horrific.

[00:10:14] And then the next one was in Bulgaria and the chairlifts are just going up over mud.

[00:10:18] And you get to the top and there's like little thin strips of snow where the runs are.

[00:10:23] And then they did actually have a run down to the bottom of the mountain where the resort was.

[00:10:27] And it was six foot wide and about three inches deep.

[00:10:31] And at the end of the day, like the rocks are coming through it and your board's getting scratched.

[00:10:35] So that was a tricky one.

[00:10:36] But I also went to Macedonia, which is interesting because that's where Brainchild is.

[00:10:41] So we're producing a lot of the new products in our industry, which are all eco-friendly and stuff like that.

[00:10:46] So I first went to Macedonia with Ralph Groshall, who showed me his factory.

[00:10:52] I was one of the first people to see it.

[00:10:53] It's a friend of mine.

[00:10:54] Oh, no way.

[00:10:54] And he mentioned that the snowboarding was really good, right?

[00:10:57] So I was then looking for somewhere to do backcountry snowboarding and I was on my own.

[00:11:03] So I wanted to be with a guide and like have someone show me around.

[00:11:05] And I found this backcountry snowboarding in Macedonia.

[00:11:08] And I was like, right, I'm booking it up.

[00:11:09] And I managed to convince one friend.

[00:11:11] I spoke to all my mates.

[00:11:12] No one wanted to come.

[00:11:13] They're like, what?

[00:11:13] I've never heard that place.

[00:11:14] No one knows about Macedonia.

[00:11:16] What are you talking about?

[00:11:16] So one friend was confident enough to come with me.

[00:11:19] And yeah, this was last year.

[00:11:21] We had the most insane trip ever.

[00:11:22] So we're riding up in snowcats.

[00:11:24] It's this huge national park.

[00:11:26] There's no lift.

[00:11:27] There's no resort.

[00:11:28] There's no people.

[00:11:29] And I think at times we were the only eight people in the whole national park in one snowcat just with endless powder.

[00:11:36] It was the most.

[00:11:37] It's kind of ruined snowboarding for me.

[00:11:39] And I know this is a foil podcast and we should get onto that.

[00:11:42] But it was almost like the most perfect day you could ever have.

[00:11:45] You know, we did like 15 cat runs.

[00:11:47] Just perfect powder, fresh tracks.

[00:11:50] 15 cat runs in a day.

[00:11:52] It was, we skipped lunch.

[00:11:53] They were like, do you want to stop for lunch?

[00:11:54] We're like, why don't we want to stop?

[00:11:56] Let's just keep going, keep going, keep going.

[00:11:57] And it was bonkers.

[00:11:59] So that was Macedonia.

[00:12:00] So yeah, so this year, New Year's just been in the Alps.

[00:12:03] And now I've got another snowboarding trip, splitboarding in Meyerhofen in a week's time.

[00:12:09] And then, yeah, that's my snowboarding for this year done back to Foiling.

[00:12:13] That's amazing.

[00:12:14] Wow.

[00:12:16] We think back in Canada, we have one spot in Quebec City where we'd be happy if we hiked up and did five laps.

[00:12:23] So I can't even imagine 15.

[00:12:25] And I'm assuming those laps were a lot longer than a couple hundred meters.

[00:12:29] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:30] This is like top to bottom of the mountain.

[00:12:32] Like it was, I've never done, I've never done it in a cat before.

[00:12:36] And like the snow cat, you know, it's Macedonia, right?

[00:12:39] So it's not like, I don't know, going to one of those super posh resorts in America where the snow cat's brand new and you're paying 20 grand to be there on your own for a week.

[00:12:47] And it's driving you around and it's all super safe.

[00:12:49] Like I was more scared in the snow cat than I've ever been as we're driving up the edge of this mountain.

[00:12:55] And you're just going, if this thing falls over now, we're done.

[00:12:57] And littered all around the national park are snow cats that have fallen down or fallen over.

[00:13:03] And they're just left like until the summer comes and they can get to them to drag them out or whatever they're doing.

[00:13:08] So it was, yeah, definitely a sketchy thing.

[00:13:12] Like the snow cat was pretty nuts, but it allowed you to get, you know, 15 runs in and just actually make the most of it.

[00:13:19] It was the best day snowboarding I think I've ever had in my life.

[00:13:21] And I think it will be a tough one to beat for sure.

[00:13:24] Well, I guess we can understand why you love foiling so much because powder snowboarding and powder skiing is pretty much the closest thing you can find in the water to foiling.

[00:13:35] Have you always been pretty active in sports?

[00:13:38] Like when did the whole journey with the water kind of start?

[00:13:42] So the water started for me when I was seven years old, which is 41 years ago now.

[00:13:47] So I'm 48 and kind of getting used to the idea of being 48.

[00:13:51] In my mind, I'm still 18 and I still act like a child.

[00:13:54] And yeah, I'm just super childish, but that's a good way to be, I guess.

[00:13:58] But my dad actually got into windsurfing in the 80s, early 80s.

[00:14:03] So he went to the London Boat Show.

[00:14:04] He was a big dinghy sailor.

[00:14:06] He'd always raced fireballs back in the day, which was kind of like the fastest craft when he was young.

[00:14:11] And he went to the boat show one year and windsurfing was there on display.

[00:14:15] And he was like, oh my God, this is crazy.

[00:14:17] So he picked up a 10 Cate Hunter, which was one of the first commercially available windsurf boards in Europe.

[00:14:23] And he bought it home.

[00:14:24] And this thing was like, I don't know, 20 foot long, weighed a ton, took two to get on the car.

[00:14:28] Like it was just bonkers.

[00:14:30] There's a wooden boom and a triangular sail and all the rest of it.

[00:14:32] And I was like this seven-year-old kid who just worshipped my dad.

[00:14:36] And I just thought, oh, this is the coolest thing ever.

[00:14:38] So I want to do that.

[00:14:39] So I would stand on this board with my dad and like reach up the top of my arms and hold on to his boom.

[00:14:46] And I think the next year he managed to get hold of a kiddie rig for me.

[00:14:49] And I just love windsurfing.

[00:14:51] So I windsurfed all my life up until 2005 in Maui was the last time I went windsurfing.

[00:14:58] I became a windsurfing instructor when I was 18, traveled the world for like six years, working in Australia, Canary Islands, Turkey, Greece, you know, all over.

[00:15:08] And loved that.

[00:15:10] But then came back to this kind of real world, you know, I don't know if you've ever done it, but when you're meeting all these people as a young kid, you're sort of 16, well, 18, 19, 20.

[00:15:20] And you're meeting all these professional people that have got loads of money and you're earning, what, 40 quid a week or something stupid it was back then.

[00:15:27] And, you know, it's real peanuts and you're real, you were a proper surf bum and you're like, maybe I've got this wrong.

[00:15:32] Maybe I need to go and earn some proper money.

[00:15:34] And then you come back to England, you earn some proper money, you get a credit card and then you're suddenly stuck here paying that off.

[00:15:39] And you're like, no, I didn't have it wrong.

[00:15:41] I had it right.

[00:15:42] I definitely had it right.

[00:15:45] But I still, I still windsurfed and I had like a few years of doing kind of normal jobs.

[00:15:52] And working in publishing, actually, it was always advertising sales that I was working in.

[00:15:58] So I did that for a little while.

[00:16:00] And then I really kind of came across kite surfing when it first became, you know, became around in like 98, 99.

[00:16:07] Those early days.

[00:16:09] I had a friend, Chris Calfrop, who's sadly passed now.

[00:16:12] But he was like one of the pioneers of kite surfing back in the day.

[00:16:16] So he lived near me.

[00:16:17] He would go to Maui in the winter.

[00:16:18] He was famous for windsurfing jaws and was one of the first kite boarders in the UK.

[00:16:24] And so I saw him doing this sport and I was like, that's never going to catch on.

[00:16:27] He's just got a tangled mess of lines and a kite that's in the water that's full of water.

[00:16:31] Like this is just a silly sport.

[00:16:33] And I was still windsurfing a lot.

[00:16:35] And this is probably sort of, you know, 99, something like that.

[00:16:38] And then I think early 2000s, he had his first kind of inflatable kite.

[00:16:42] And suddenly he was making it look like a doable sport.

[00:16:45] And around that time, I was actually recovering from a knee injury that I'd hurt in 1998, I think it was.

[00:16:53] So I was sort of recovering and windsurfing, I was getting back into it after this knee injury.

[00:16:57] But it was sort of hurting.

[00:16:58] And I thought the idea of kiting, you're lifted up, you know, it's a bit more soft on the knees.

[00:17:03] You're not doing forward loops and all the crazy tricks that I used to do.

[00:17:06] And so I just got into windsurfing really early.

[00:17:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:09] So back in the day, I was there and did the British Wavesailing Championships.

[00:17:14] Never, never did anything good.

[00:17:16] But I was, yeah, like a full stalled forward loop, big forward loops.

[00:17:19] That's how I did my knee was big stalled forward loops back in the day.

[00:17:24] And just like landed flat and just exploded it.

[00:17:27] Tore all the cartilage in my left knee.

[00:17:29] And yeah, I had to have operation.

[00:17:31] Had it all removed.

[00:17:32] I was told I'd have arthritis 10 years later and be a bit messed up from it.

[00:17:36] But it's fine.

[00:17:37] Touch wood.

[00:17:37] You know, I take lots of vitamins and exercise it.

[00:17:40] And it's good.

[00:17:40] So yeah, so I was a pretty decent windsurfer.

[00:17:43] Yeah, quite decent actually.

[00:17:46] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:47] Like I've done it since I was seven years old, right?

[00:17:49] That's fair.

[00:17:49] Yes, fair.

[00:17:50] I literally just wanted to windsurf.

[00:17:52] And you do seasons as a windsurfing instructor.

[00:17:54] I worked in some of the best resorts and best locations with some really good windsurfers.

[00:17:59] That makes sense.

[00:18:00] You get good because they're good.

[00:18:02] You know, your level's kind of being pushed by the people around you.

[00:18:06] So yeah, so I kind of enjoyed that.

[00:18:08] And then when I saw kitesurfing, I just saw it as a way that, you know, maybe this is not going to be as brutal on my knees.

[00:18:13] But I learned when there was just nothing.

[00:18:16] You know, I went to the kitesurfing shop, which was the windsurfing shop.

[00:18:20] And Mark, who's a good friend of mine from BoardWorks, shout out to those guys.

[00:18:24] He basically said, oh, you know, yeah, you've got to get into this kitesurfing thing.

[00:18:27] I said, yeah, yeah, I want to kite.

[00:18:28] I want to kite.

[00:18:29] And of course, there wasn't much around.

[00:18:30] I think all he had for sale was like a 17 and a half meter Nash thing that was just this huge, great, big, ridiculous, stupid, stupid kite.

[00:18:38] And I took it off and went on my first kitesurfing session on my own, having watched the video about how to connect the lines.

[00:18:45] No lessons, no nothing.

[00:18:46] Self-launched it.

[00:18:48] Feet barely touched the ground.

[00:18:50] Get into the water.

[00:18:51] Hit the water.

[00:18:52] Feet still barely touched the ground.

[00:18:54] I disappeared like two miles downwind.

[00:18:56] Just go, this thing is like I was having a ball.

[00:18:58] Like I was just going, this is the most exciting, adrenaline-fueled thing I've ever done in my life.

[00:19:04] I'm loving this.

[00:19:05] And then when I finally thought I would need to stop now, I've gone so far and I've got to walk all the way back up.

[00:19:11] And I sort of managed to park the kite.

[00:19:12] I was like, I don't know how to stop it.

[00:19:13] Like I don't know how to land it.

[00:19:14] I don't remember that bit of the video.

[00:19:17] So I was then trying to work out how to kind of manage to crash it.

[00:19:20] And I managed to pull on a line and sort of, you know, get into a bundle of mess.

[00:19:23] And I went into the shop the next day and I was like, oh, my God, Mark, I've got to get a board.

[00:19:27] He wouldn't sell me a board at first.

[00:19:29] He said, you've got to learn to fly the kite.

[00:19:30] And I said, I want a board.

[00:19:31] And he goes, but you haven't been out yet.

[00:19:32] And I said, yeah, no, I went out yesterday.

[00:19:34] He said it was really windy yesterday.

[00:19:35] And I said, yeah, yeah, I know.

[00:19:37] It was brilliant.

[00:19:37] I want to do this again.

[00:19:38] I want a board.

[00:19:38] I'm fully hooked.

[00:19:40] I'm into it.

[00:19:40] It's great.

[00:19:41] He's going, but it was like, you know, four, six or something.

[00:19:43] What are you doing on a 17 and a half meter kite?

[00:19:45] And I was like, my feet barely touched the ground.

[00:19:46] And he's like, yeah, I'm not surprised.

[00:19:48] But I was hooked, right?

[00:19:50] And the kite surfing thing really got me.

[00:19:52] Like I was totally hooked on kiting.

[00:19:54] All I wanted to do was kite.

[00:19:56] I changed my job so I could kite more.

[00:19:59] Basically, I was selling advertising and I got a job selling health insurance, which was going to appointments in the evening

[00:20:05] and selling a product to people rather than having to have meetings during the day.

[00:20:09] So I just spent my whole day kite surfing.

[00:20:11] And then I'd go and sell in the evenings and do that.

[00:20:14] And that was great.

[00:20:15] And it was early on.

[00:20:16] So I think about 2004, it was 2004, I got a job for the Kite Surfing UK magazine, which was Kite Surf.

[00:20:25] It was just called.

[00:20:26] And it was like a paper magazine.

[00:20:27] And I got a job there as the editor.

[00:20:30] I've been writing for them for free and just sending them articles and things.

[00:20:33] And they sat my current editor.

[00:20:35] And that's when I started there.

[00:20:37] So yeah, kite surfing was just, you know, became my job, you know, and I loved it and carried on doing it.

[00:20:42] And then with the foiling, I was one of the first people to learn kite foiling.

[00:20:47] So I don't know if you ever heard of the Carafino boards, a guy called Mark Carafino from Maui.

[00:20:52] He was making those very early kite surfing prototypes.

[00:20:55] And I was trying to get hold of one to use, but he had a rule, the guy that was distributing in the UK, that you couldn't use it unless he was there.

[00:21:01] So he wouldn't send it to you because he wanted to be there to kind of show you how to use it and all the rest of it.

[00:21:06] And it was just sort of this thing that you'd get a go on at the beach if he was around.

[00:21:10] But you couldn't take it off and sort of try and learn it.

[00:21:12] So I think the first one I got was when Liquiforce made the first commercially available kite foil, the very original one that they did.

[00:21:20] And they kindly sent me one.

[00:21:22] And I was like, well, I've been kite surfing, you know, pretty much every day for years.

[00:21:26] I can ride a surfboard.

[00:21:27] I can ride a twin tip.

[00:21:28] I can ride a skimboard.

[00:21:29] I can do everything with a kite, right?

[00:21:31] I'm going to be absolutely golden with this foiling life.

[00:21:35] This is going to be so easy.

[00:21:36] And it was like 100 centimetre long mast, which is way too long.

[00:21:40] Like the foil was this weird delta shaped thing made out of, you know, ABS plastic or something.

[00:21:45] It was just the most horrific setup ever.

[00:21:48] And I remember being humbled at the beach, just absolutely humbled.

[00:21:52] Like I couldn't make this thing work.

[00:21:53] And I was struggling.

[00:21:55] And the first time ever, I was like downwind about, I don't know, half a mile and having to walk back up.

[00:22:00] I'm just thinking I'm broken.

[00:22:01] But I enjoyed it.

[00:22:02] I did enjoy it.

[00:22:04] And so I then persevered with the kite foiling and got pretty good at kite foiling.

[00:22:09] Like I was never, you know, like these young kids that you see today, like Fred Hope and all that lot.

[00:22:14] But, you know, nowhere near that kind of level of talent.

[00:22:16] But I could ride around on a kite foil confidently.

[00:22:19] And I loved that.

[00:22:20] You know, it was great being able to go where you wanted to go.

[00:22:22] And then, I guess, coming into the wing foiling, I was at the Nash meeting in 2019 because of my work in the kite surfing industry with the magazines and stuff.

[00:22:31] I was invited to go out there.

[00:22:33] And that was the year they launched the Wing Surfer.

[00:22:36] So it was kind of the first time that anyone outside of Maui or the industry had really seen this thing, you know.

[00:22:42] And I remember being at the meeting and Robbie is like frothing on it.

[00:22:47] And everyone's looking at Robbie, giving him a fair amount of respect because it's Robbie Nash.

[00:22:52] And he's like the hero to so many of us.

[00:22:55] But also just like looking like, what the hell is he talking about?

[00:22:59] This thing looks ridiculous.

[00:23:00] Like, what is he talking about?

[00:23:02] And he had Brian Tarmer there, who's another one of my heroes from the old windsurfing videos.

[00:23:08] And I was chatting to Brian about it.

[00:23:09] And he's like, oh, yeah, you've got to give it a go.

[00:23:11] You've got to give it a go.

[00:23:12] But they only had, I think it was two wings and two boards with foil set up there the whole week.

[00:23:17] They didn't have much kit.

[00:23:19] Like, it was so new.

[00:23:19] It wasn't a lot.

[00:23:20] And it was them kind of showcasing it.

[00:23:22] So to try and get on the gear was really hard.

[00:23:25] But it got towards the end of the week.

[00:23:27] And I was like, I've got to get on it because I can't come home from this trip having not tried this new thing.

[00:23:32] I've got to give it a go.

[00:23:33] So I eventually managed to get Brian to get me, you know, said, look, Brian, I'm leaving tomorrow.

[00:23:38] Just whoever comes in on that next, I want it.

[00:23:40] Like, make sure I get it.

[00:23:42] I think I was on like a paddle board with a foil attached to the bottom of it.

[00:23:46] I have no idea what size it was, but the board was pretty big.

[00:23:49] And I got the wing.

[00:23:51] And there just wasn't enough wind to kind of make it work, which is, you know, in wing foiling, there's nothing more frustrating than it not being windy enough.

[00:23:57] It's just a hard effort and a slog.

[00:23:59] So I think I went out back a couple of times.

[00:24:01] I got it on foil a couple of times.

[00:24:04] And as soon as I got it on foil, I instantly felt that release of the drag.

[00:24:08] And like, suddenly it's working.

[00:24:09] I was going, oh, my God, this feels amazing.

[00:24:12] But then, you know, I'd come off foil and be pumping and trying to get it going and not getting it going.

[00:24:17] So I had a pretty long walk of shame that first wing session.

[00:24:20] And then kind of was like, because of our industry, it was like, what are you going to do about winging?

[00:24:26] You know, we were just like, I can't see this taking off.

[00:24:28] Like, I can't.

[00:24:29] You know, I just couldn't see it taking off.

[00:24:31] But at that time, I was like, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

[00:24:34] But I just can't see the potential of it.

[00:24:36] And then the next time I had a go, I was in Madagascar with F1 on a trip with them.

[00:24:42] And they'd got their first prototype swings, the first wings that they made.

[00:24:47] So the first wing from F1.

[00:24:49] They had those there, but they weren't commercially available at the time.

[00:24:52] And the guys were still kind of learning themselves.

[00:24:55] And I think Tituan Galea was there.

[00:24:57] And he was trying his first back rolls.

[00:24:59] That was kind of, you know, the level that it was.

[00:25:01] And it was, the guys were like, amazing.

[00:25:03] He was trying to back roll this thing.

[00:25:04] Like, you know, they were just like, whoa, that's insane.

[00:25:07] Like, they didn't think that this sport was going to go in that direction.

[00:25:11] And Brendan was there from the kite boarder in the US as well.

[00:25:14] And we were chatting about whether we thought this was going to be a thing still or not.

[00:25:18] You know, even then it was just like, is this going to be a thing?

[00:25:21] Anyway, the kit that the F1 boys had was really small.

[00:25:24] So the boards were all about, you know, 60 litres and I'm a 6 foot 200 or 85 kilo guy.

[00:25:30] So it was just inappropriate equipment for someone whose second ever wing foil was having a go.

[00:25:35] And I think it was blowing about 40 knots as well.

[00:25:37] And I managed to put the foil through the wing.

[00:25:39] And I was just like, oh man, this sport kind of sucks.

[00:25:41] I'm not really vibing this.

[00:25:43] But then that winter of 2020, I got F1 to send me some kit when they first, you know, made it.

[00:25:51] So they'll send me a wing and a board and they kindly did.

[00:25:54] And I basically spent that winter of 2020 kind of, you know, learning and trying to get it sussed.

[00:25:58] And by sort of 2021, I was still just doing it, not as much as I was kiting, but I was kind of getting it kind of dialed.

[00:26:06] And then I met a guy that lives here who's become a really good friend of mine.

[00:26:11] And we were kind of hooked up by a mutual friend who was like, oh, you two are into winging.

[00:26:14] You two should hang out.

[00:26:15] So we kind of met at the beach and have been hanging out ever since.

[00:26:20] And, you know, since then, you know, to carry on on the whole sort of foiling journey, I guess it was the wing foiling was the first thing.

[00:26:27] And then it's like, you know, you get that dialed.

[00:26:29] You start getting into the waves.

[00:26:30] You realize how good that is.

[00:26:32] Although we're kind of, we're lucky here, but also unlucky.

[00:26:36] The waves that we get from the Atlantic and they're pretty punchy.

[00:26:39] So if it's, you know, if it's a meter high, getting out through that when you're still pretty novice at wing foiling is pretty tough.

[00:26:46] But it's a good baptism of fire, but you can get some amazing rides when that works.

[00:26:51] And then I was also a keen surfer as well.

[00:26:53] And my mate Ollie had started trying to learn to prone foil.

[00:26:56] I think this was probably 2000 and well, 20, yeah, 2022, something like that.

[00:27:01] So about three years ago, no, maybe 2021, he was starting to prone foil.

[00:27:06] I think I've been doing it for three years.

[00:27:07] So, yeah, so three years ago, started prone foiling as well with him.

[00:27:11] Really enjoyed that.

[00:27:12] And then with the dock starting, we just started seeing people getting onto the dock starting.

[00:27:18] I'm one of these people that,

[00:27:20] if there's something there to learn, I want to learn it.

[00:27:23] You know, I'm not one of these people that's like, oh, no, I'm not going to do that.

[00:27:26] I don't want to be a kook.

[00:27:27] I don't want to be a beginner.

[00:27:28] I don't, I kind of worry that if I don't get in there early,

[00:27:31] people are going to be better than me or that, you know,

[00:27:33] I'm going to be behind on the learning curve.

[00:27:35] And I guess with my job,

[00:27:37] there's an element of people expect me to be able to do a lot of these things.

[00:27:40] And so, yeah, so Ollie and I started going down as a dock near us,

[00:27:44] and we'd just meet up and go down.

[00:27:45] And we got fully hooked on dock starting.

[00:27:48] Was it probably last year?

[00:27:49] I think it was early last year.

[00:27:52] And just all we did was just dock, you know,

[00:27:54] it'd be great wind conditions.

[00:27:55] And we'd just be going to the dock,

[00:27:56] even though it was windy and just jumping off and pumping and pumping and pumping.

[00:27:59] And it was, I remember I've got this,

[00:28:01] this partner, Susie, she's great.

[00:28:04] And she kind of,

[00:28:04] she surfs as well,

[00:28:05] but she thinks I'm a bit mad for doing everything that I do.

[00:28:08] And it was the first time that she'd actually seen me get fully addicted to

[00:28:12] something.

[00:28:13] Cause we'd only been together for like about six,

[00:28:15] seven months by the time I started dock starting.

[00:28:17] And I'd be going for like three hours every evening after work,

[00:28:21] every day.

[00:28:22] And after about the fourth,

[00:28:24] after about the fourth or fifth day,

[00:28:25] she was like, well,

[00:28:26] you're going again.

[00:28:27] And I'm like, yeah,

[00:28:27] I'm going again.

[00:28:28] And she's just like,

[00:28:29] what's wrong with you?

[00:28:29] And I'm like, no,

[00:28:30] I've got to,

[00:28:30] I've got to crack this thing.

[00:28:31] I said,

[00:28:32] I'm just going to do it until I crack it.

[00:28:33] And she,

[00:28:33] she was really just couldn't really understand like what the obsession was.

[00:28:38] She's going to something wrong with you.

[00:28:39] You're obsessed.

[00:28:39] You're like literally obsessed.

[00:28:40] And I said,

[00:28:41] I know I am.

[00:28:41] But then once I crack it,

[00:28:43] I can take it or leave it.

[00:28:44] Like I've got that.

[00:28:46] So,

[00:28:47] so like we spent so much time on the dock last year.

[00:28:49] And then this year,

[00:28:50] I think I've logged maybe,

[00:28:51] I don't know,

[00:28:51] 15,

[00:28:52] 16 hours on the dock.

[00:28:53] We had a great summer of waves and wind.

[00:28:55] So didn't really need to do it.

[00:28:57] But yeah,

[00:28:57] I do sort of like learning all aspects of these sports.

[00:29:02] So the foiling,

[00:29:03] I had a good background with the kiting,

[00:29:06] which sort of,

[00:29:06] you know,

[00:29:07] helped me learn the wing foiling a little bit faster.

[00:29:09] And then,

[00:29:10] as you know,

[00:29:11] like it's so transferable,

[00:29:12] everything,

[00:29:12] you know,

[00:29:13] the dock start things improved.

[00:29:15] My wing foiling,

[00:29:16] no ends.

[00:29:16] The surf foiling,

[00:29:17] you know,

[00:29:17] was improved by the dock starting.

[00:29:19] And,

[00:29:20] you know,

[00:29:20] it all kind of melts into one.

[00:29:22] And it's,

[00:29:22] it's great.

[00:29:23] The downside is I used to mountain bike a lot and I don't mountain bike at all

[00:29:27] because every day is an ocean day.

[00:29:29] You know,

[00:29:29] I love the ocean.

[00:29:30] I love being in it.

[00:29:31] It's my happy place.

[00:29:32] And now I can literally go in it every day without fail.

[00:29:35] You know,

[00:29:39] starting if there's no wind and there's waves go surfing or surf foiling.

[00:29:43] If there's winds,

[00:29:44] okay.

[00:29:45] If it's enough to wing,

[00:29:46] go winging.

[00:29:47] If it's not take the kite foil out in super light winds.

[00:29:49] If it's windier and the waves are good,

[00:29:51] go kite surfing.

[00:29:52] So I just have a van full of gear and I just,

[00:29:55] whatever the conditions of the day are,

[00:29:57] that's where I get in.

[00:29:58] So yeah,

[00:29:59] it's been a,

[00:30:00] it's,

[00:30:00] it's funny.

[00:30:01] My dad getting that 10 cat a hunter whenever it was,

[00:30:04] and I was seven years old,

[00:30:05] that's kind of completely changed my life,

[00:30:07] which I'm for the better,

[00:30:09] you know,

[00:30:09] no complaints at all.

[00:30:11] Yeah,

[00:30:11] no,

[00:30:11] that's such a fortunate,

[00:30:13] I guess,

[00:30:13] and a pretty happy experience to get to go through that and then actually

[00:30:17] start to get to work in the industry.

[00:30:19] Were you working for that other magazine at the time of the birth of wing

[00:30:23] foiling?

[00:30:24] Like when did you decide to start off on your own journey?

[00:30:27] That was,

[00:30:27] yes,

[00:30:28] that was way back.

[00:30:29] So I,

[00:30:29] it was 2004 when I started working for the kite surfing magazine.

[00:30:33] So it was pretty early on in kite surfing's history.

[00:30:35] I did two years there.

[00:30:37] And,

[00:30:38] uh,

[00:30:38] for want of a better word,

[00:30:40] the publisher was a bit of an asshole and he'd never pay me my money.

[00:30:44] Right.

[00:30:44] So I'd gone from earning loads of money,

[00:30:46] selling health insurance and being a,

[00:30:48] an advertising salesman in,

[00:30:50] in sort of commercial publishing and,

[00:30:52] you know,

[00:30:52] earning a nice pretty penny.

[00:30:54] And as you all know,

[00:30:55] Luke,

[00:30:56] this industry is not,

[00:30:56] you know,

[00:30:57] great for paying fat wages.

[00:30:58] So it's more about the love and the passion.

[00:31:00] And,

[00:31:01] uh,

[00:31:01] I did a year working for him,

[00:31:03] and still kept my job selling the health insurance.

[00:31:05] So I was like,

[00:31:05] okay,

[00:31:05] this is good.

[00:31:06] And I,

[00:31:06] I just sort of was missing out because there were lots of trips,

[00:31:09] lots of opportunities through the magazine that I was saying no to,

[00:31:13] because I only had four weeks holiday a year and I was still working for this

[00:31:15] other company.

[00:31:16] And I was kind of just splitting my time.

[00:31:18] And I,

[00:31:18] I made the decision that,

[00:31:20] you know,

[00:31:20] an opportunity like that doesn't come up very often.

[00:31:22] You know,

[00:31:22] when I started windsurfing,

[00:31:24] I was seven years old,

[00:31:25] but windsurfing was already,

[00:31:26] you know,

[00:31:26] on,

[00:31:27] on its road.

[00:31:28] And I was too young to really get a job in the industry.

[00:31:31] And jobs in the industry are really few and far between.

[00:31:33] So I felt like this was an opportunity within kiteboarding that perhaps wouldn't present itself

[00:31:38] again.

[00:31:38] You know,

[00:31:38] I was there at the birth of kiteboarding,

[00:31:40] learning it.

[00:31:41] I was a pretty decent kiteboarder in 2004.

[00:31:43] Like I was top 10 in the UK freestyle.

[00:31:46] And so I was,

[00:31:47] you know,

[00:31:47] I was handy and I could do the sport and I'd got this job with a magazine.

[00:31:50] And I just thought,

[00:31:51] you know what,

[00:31:52] ditch the real job,

[00:31:53] take the massive pay cut,

[00:31:55] which was horrific.

[00:31:56] And just try and survive and,

[00:31:58] and do it for a year and see what happens.

[00:32:00] And if,

[00:32:01] if,

[00:32:01] if the worst comes worse,

[00:32:02] you go back to selling health insurance or go back to working for a big company,

[00:32:05] selling ads.

[00:32:06] You know,

[00:32:06] you can always go back.

[00:32:07] So I took the plunge and I did it.

[00:32:09] And I just went on all these fantastic trips and met all these amazing people,

[00:32:13] made so many friends.

[00:32:14] And,

[00:32:15] you know,

[00:32:15] like you said about the community earlier as well,

[00:32:17] you know,

[00:32:17] suddenly,

[00:32:18] you know,

[00:32:18] I just had this,

[00:32:19] this world open up to me and I,

[00:32:21] and I loved it,

[00:32:21] but the publisher just never paid me my money.

[00:32:24] And it was a really small amount of money.

[00:32:25] I think I got paid like a thousand pounds a month or something.

[00:32:28] It was like really not a lot.

[00:32:29] So it wasn't enough to live on really,

[00:32:31] but I had savings and I was kind of making it work.

[00:32:34] And I,

[00:32:34] I had a kite school that I'd started as well to kind of,

[00:32:36] supplement my income and do a few bits.

[00:32:39] And then because he wouldn't actually pay me that money,

[00:32:41] like I'd be chasing him at Christmas,

[00:32:44] you know,

[00:32:44] and he'd owe me four months wages,

[00:32:46] which was nothing.

[00:32:47] It was only four grand,

[00:32:47] but it was just,

[00:32:48] you know,

[00:32:48] I just,

[00:32:49] and I've got nothing,

[00:32:49] you know,

[00:32:50] and actually my bank account actually got closed because they said,

[00:32:53] you're not putting enough money into it.

[00:32:55] So they closed my bank account.

[00:32:56] There's nothing I could do.

[00:32:57] They just said,

[00:32:57] you know,

[00:32:58] it doesn't matter that you've got a job and you can prove you've got a job.

[00:33:00] The money's not coming in.

[00:33:01] So as far as we're concerned,

[00:33:02] you're not going to see we're closing your bank account.

[00:33:04] I'm like,

[00:33:05] how can you just close my bank account?

[00:33:07] Like,

[00:33:07] what do I do?

[00:33:08] Like help.

[00:33:09] And they were just like,

[00:33:09] no,

[00:33:09] that's what's happening.

[00:33:10] So it was really bad.

[00:33:11] So I just decided that I'd worked selling advertising for many years in the

[00:33:16] publishing industry.

[00:33:17] And now I've been the editor of this magazine.

[00:33:19] So I'd become a photographer.

[00:33:21] I'd learned that I'd,

[00:33:22] you know,

[00:33:23] been writing a lot.

[00:33:24] I've always been keen writing articles and stories and things since I was a

[00:33:28] kid.

[00:33:28] So I just kind of thought,

[00:33:30] you know what?

[00:33:30] I can make my own magazine.

[00:33:31] I can do my own thing.

[00:33:32] And at the same time,

[00:33:34] my brother,

[00:33:34] Alex,

[00:33:35] who I'm still in business with today,

[00:33:37] he was doing computer studies and this is 2006.

[00:33:40] So this is kind of pre broadband internet.

[00:33:42] Everyone's still on dial up,

[00:33:44] you know,

[00:33:44] people have got email addresses,

[00:33:46] but it's not,

[00:33:46] it's not the behemoth it is today.

[00:33:48] You know,

[00:33:48] social media doesn't exist.

[00:33:50] There's nothing like what's going on right now.

[00:33:52] And for a lot of people,

[00:33:53] they were born after then.

[00:33:54] Right.

[00:33:55] So some of these young guys on the wind for a world tour,

[00:33:57] they don't even know what 2006 looked like.

[00:33:59] Nope.

[00:34:00] It was kind of a,

[00:34:00] it was kind of a kind of crazy time.

[00:34:03] And I just had this idea that where I've worked for the paper magazine,

[00:34:07] a lot of the advertisers would complain that there was no way for them to

[00:34:11] know whether the adverts were working or not.

[00:34:12] So they would say to me when I walk into the shops or I walk into their

[00:34:16] businesses,

[00:34:16] they'd go,

[00:34:17] well,

[00:34:17] look,

[00:34:17] we give you all this money,

[00:34:18] but we don't know where it goes.

[00:34:19] Like we can't prove how many copies you're selling or,

[00:34:22] anything like that,

[00:34:23] you know,

[00:34:23] and there is no proof in this side of the industry because you,

[00:34:27] you don't have to write.

[00:34:28] It's a small enough industry that you can't be ABC recognized,

[00:34:31] which is the,

[00:34:32] um,

[00:34:33] associated bureau of circulations who sort of police all that stuff with

[00:34:37] larger magazines.

[00:34:38] But you have to be 30,000 copies before they'll even come and audit you

[00:34:42] and no,

[00:34:42] no,

[00:34:43] no,

[00:34:44] no,

[00:34:45] no,

[00:34:52] Hey,

[00:34:52] we do whatever.

[00:34:53] And our magazine actually,

[00:34:54] we used to say we printed 15,000 copies,

[00:34:57] but I knew we only sold two at best.

[00:35:00] You know,

[00:35:00] it was just this big lie that they would say we do this.

[00:35:02] So when the shops were saying to me,

[00:35:03] Oh,

[00:35:03] you know,

[00:35:04] you're telling me this,

[00:35:04] but I can't really see the return on the investment.

[00:35:07] I kind of just thought there might be a better way.

[00:35:09] And I was pretty internet savvy at the time.

[00:35:11] My brother was doing this,

[00:35:12] uh,

[00:35:12] degree at university in computing.

[00:35:15] And so we just kind of had a chat about what we might be able to do.

[00:35:17] And I'd seen someone had done for a university project,

[00:35:20] like a digital magazine with a page flip that,

[00:35:22] you know,

[00:35:22] the pages flip and you read the magazine online.

[00:35:25] And I was like,

[00:35:26] well,

[00:35:26] that's pretty cool.

[00:35:27] If we could do that,

[00:35:27] maybe we could track what people were looking at using some tracking

[00:35:30] software.

[00:35:31] And then we can give these advertisers the feedback that they want.

[00:35:34] And if we can give the advertisers the feedback that they want,

[00:35:37] then they're going to advertise with us.

[00:35:39] And it's going to be great.

[00:35:40] And so that's how it started.

[00:35:41] So we started IK Surf Mag in 2006.

[00:35:45] Yeah.

[00:35:45] 2006 first issue went out.

[00:35:47] I think it was November.

[00:35:48] Um,

[00:35:49] my publisher got super pissed off at me.

[00:35:51] They tried to sue us and stop us and put us out of business,

[00:35:54] which is why IK Surf Mag is called IK Surf Mag.

[00:35:57] We couldn't use the word kite.

[00:35:58] So we were legally stopped from using the word kite in our title,

[00:36:02] um,

[00:36:02] which we kind of,

[00:36:04] it's like fine international case surf magazine,

[00:36:06] we called it.

[00:36:07] And it's just become IK Surf Mag.

[00:36:08] But back then it was interesting.

[00:36:10] There was no dial up in,

[00:36:11] well,

[00:36:11] it's just dial up internet broadband that just started.

[00:36:14] So if you have broadband,

[00:36:15] it worked.

[00:36:15] If you didn't have broadband,

[00:36:16] it didn't really work.

[00:36:17] So South Africans couldn't really read it.

[00:36:20] Australians couldn't really read it.

[00:36:22] But if you're in the UK,

[00:36:22] Europe,

[00:36:23] America,

[00:36:24] and you had like an ADSL connection or one of the early broadband

[00:36:28] connections,

[00:36:28] it would,

[00:36:29] it would work.

[00:36:29] And it was,

[00:36:30] um,

[00:36:31] yeah,

[00:36:31] it was a hell of a project to go from start of the idea to actually

[00:36:35] making that a thing that worked,

[00:36:37] that was,

[00:36:37] we could actually share it with everyone.

[00:36:39] You know,

[00:36:39] I remember the first time we built it,

[00:36:41] we all sat there,

[00:36:43] the four guys that started it and we each went through it and it just

[00:36:46] crashed and it broke.

[00:36:47] And it just,

[00:36:48] you know,

[00:36:48] it just,

[00:36:48] the,

[00:36:48] the,

[00:36:49] the capabilities of the internet wasn't there.

[00:36:51] And so we ended up having to like go back to the drawer board,

[00:36:54] make all the files super small,

[00:36:56] um,

[00:36:56] you know,

[00:36:57] pay a fortune for servers.

[00:36:58] Like we spend a lot of money on server speeds so that they actually would

[00:37:02] work.

[00:37:02] And that was,

[00:37:03] um,

[00:37:03] something we hadn't factored into the costs.

[00:37:05] Oh,

[00:37:06] yeah,

[00:37:06] that,

[00:37:07] that kind of,

[00:37:07] that kind of just was a bit of an adventure.

[00:37:10] And it was,

[00:37:10] it was weird because people say to me now,

[00:37:12] I actually just got an email just now,

[00:37:13] uh,

[00:37:14] from a guy,

[00:37:15] a wetsuit company saying,

[00:37:15] Oh,

[00:37:16] can you send me a print version of your magazine?

[00:37:18] And I'm like,

[00:37:18] no,

[00:37:18] we've never,

[00:37:19] we've never done a print version since 2006.

[00:37:21] We've been digital.

[00:37:22] And that back then everyone would say to us,

[00:37:25] well,

[00:37:25] you know,

[00:37:26] who's going to read this?

[00:37:27] I,

[00:37:27] I read my magazines in the toilet and I sit on the toilet with my

[00:37:30] magazines.

[00:37:31] And that's how I spend my time in the toilet.

[00:37:33] And of course,

[00:37:33] now who reads a magazine?

[00:37:35] Nobody,

[00:37:36] everyone goes to the toilet with their phone and that's what they're

[00:37:38] doing.

[00:37:39] So it's kind of changed,

[00:37:40] you know?

[00:37:41] And so we were lucky to be there so early on.

[00:37:45] I mean,

[00:37:45] we developed some of the first page flip technology that was available.

[00:37:49] We probably could have made loads of money if we'd sold that and gone

[00:37:53] down that route,

[00:37:53] but we were just two kite surfers that wanted to kite surf.

[00:37:56] So we were quite happy just making a kite surfing magazine.

[00:38:00] And we did,

[00:38:01] we did sell it to a few people like the NHS used it here,

[00:38:04] which is the national health service.

[00:38:06] So we sold,

[00:38:07] um,

[00:38:08] did some stuff for them and like a few people,

[00:38:09] but gradually all these other page flip people came along and they did it

[00:38:13] for free.

[00:38:13] And,

[00:38:14] you know,

[00:38:14] people say,

[00:38:14] Oh,

[00:38:15] can we use your tech?

[00:38:15] I'm like,

[00:38:16] I'll just use X company that,

[00:38:17] you know,

[00:38:18] it won't cost you anything and they can just transform your PDF into a,

[00:38:21] into a page flip pretty quickly.

[00:38:23] But yeah.

[00:38:24] And we've developed the technology all the way.

[00:38:26] So,

[00:38:26] you know,

[00:38:27] it's not even page flip that we use anymore.

[00:38:28] It's much more advanced and we've got mobile apps and iPad apps and things like

[00:38:33] that.

[00:38:33] And the way that people engage with our content is completely different.

[00:38:37] You know,

[00:38:37] you get people that don't even know we have a magazine.

[00:38:39] They just look at our social media and that's how they engage with us.

[00:38:42] And then other people that just look at the website,

[00:38:43] which is updated three or four times a day,

[00:38:46] you know,

[00:38:46] so there's,

[00:38:47] there's different people across,

[00:38:48] across sort of every different platform that we do,

[00:38:50] which makes it a lot of work.

[00:38:52] Um,

[00:38:53] you know,

[00:38:53] really a lot of work.

[00:38:54] And then with,

[00:38:54] with tonic mag,

[00:38:56] which is our wing foiling title that originally started out as a paddleboard

[00:39:00] magazine.

[00:39:01] Um,

[00:39:02] but we were late to the paddleboard game.

[00:39:04] So when paddleboarding was exploding,

[00:39:06] I was kind of like,

[00:39:07] Oh,

[00:39:07] it doesn't look that much fun.

[00:39:08] It's not something I'm really into.

[00:39:10] I don't really feel like something I want to be writing a magazine about.

[00:39:14] And a good friend of mine once said very early on in my career,

[00:39:17] if you're passionate about something,

[00:39:18] when the money stops,

[00:39:19] you'll still be passionate about it.

[00:39:21] But if you're not passionate about it,

[00:39:22] when the money stops,

[00:39:23] you won't give a shit and it'll just disappear.

[00:39:26] And so we kind of,

[00:39:27] uh,

[00:39:28] didn't really get into the paddleboard of things.

[00:39:30] So we were there late.

[00:39:30] So when we came to it,

[00:39:32] there were no domains available with the word sup in it or anything like that.

[00:39:36] So we were like,

[00:39:36] what are we going to call it?

[00:39:37] And,

[00:39:38] um,

[00:39:38] yeah,

[00:39:38] someone in the team came up with tonic mag.

[00:39:40] Cause it's kind of like,

[00:39:41] Oh,

[00:39:41] you know,

[00:39:41] gin and tonic's quite a nice thought.

[00:39:43] And the tonic's a little pick me up and,

[00:39:45] you know,

[00:39:45] sup tonic sounded quite good.

[00:39:47] So we did that.

[00:39:48] And then we bin sup tonic when that,

[00:39:51] industry kind of collapsed.

[00:39:52] And when wing foiling was first being born,

[00:39:56] the big discussion in the industry was,

[00:39:58] you know,

[00:39:58] what,

[00:39:58] what do we do?

[00:39:59] How do we treat it?

[00:40:00] Is it going to be part of the kite surfing magazine?

[00:40:02] Is it going to be a separate section of the kite surfing magazine?

[00:40:05] Is it big enough to be its own magazine?

[00:40:07] Is there enough content?

[00:40:08] Is there enough stories?

[00:40:09] Is there enough ad support?

[00:40:11] Um,

[00:40:11] and in the end we were pretty early on just saying,

[00:40:13] yeah,

[00:40:14] let's just,

[00:40:14] let's just re brand tonic as tonic magazine.

[00:40:18] So we'll take the sup out.

[00:40:19] And we said at the time,

[00:40:20] we're still going to have it as a,

[00:40:22] a foil wing surf and sup magazine.

[00:40:25] And a lot of people,

[00:40:26] um,

[00:40:27] you know,

[00:40:27] some of the brands,

[00:40:28] why are you including sup?

[00:40:29] Why including sup?

[00:40:30] You know,

[00:40:30] you shouldn't include sup,

[00:40:31] get rid of sup,

[00:40:31] get rid of sup.

[00:40:32] But of course now sup downwinding and sup foil is really big.

[00:40:36] So it's kind of like,

[00:40:36] well,

[00:40:37] we were right to kind of keep it in there and it's kind of worked out.

[00:40:40] All right.

[00:40:40] So,

[00:40:40] so it's good.

[00:40:41] So we've got three magazines.

[00:40:42] We've got the,

[00:40:43] the Ikea surf mag tonic magazine.

[00:40:46] And then we,

[00:40:46] we do currently still have a mountain bike magazine,

[00:40:49] but that industry is in a terrible state.

[00:40:51] So we're,

[00:40:52] we're,

[00:40:53] we might not be that passionate about mountain biking anymore.

[00:40:57] Wow.

[00:40:58] So when,

[00:40:58] when do you sleep?

[00:40:59] I guess three hours in the evening.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:04] Hey,

[00:41:05] if you,

[00:41:05] if you spoke to my partner,

[00:41:06] she'd say he's always at the beach and then he has an afternoon nap most days.

[00:41:10] But yeah,

[00:41:10] no,

[00:41:11] I,

[00:41:11] I do sleep,

[00:41:12] but I'm always one of these people.

[00:41:13] I like being busy.

[00:41:15] I can't stand not being busy.

[00:41:16] And it's funny,

[00:41:17] like my,

[00:41:17] my absolute dream would be to live on a desert Island with perfect winging,

[00:41:23] kiting,

[00:41:23] foil conditions,

[00:41:24] uh,

[00:41:25] enough beer to keep me happy until the end of my days and never to have to speak

[00:41:29] to anybody ever again,

[00:41:30] because in my line of work,

[00:41:32] as I'm sure with yours,

[00:41:33] you're constantly chatting,

[00:41:34] you're constantly talking,

[00:41:35] constantly talking.

[00:41:36] They're just like,

[00:41:36] just to be like,

[00:41:37] you know,

[00:41:37] just,

[00:41:37] just to be there on my own,

[00:41:39] doing my own thing.

[00:41:40] That's it.

[00:41:41] Um,

[00:41:41] and that'd be my kind of dream that I'd sort of retreat to.

[00:41:44] But yeah,

[00:41:45] the,

[00:41:45] the,

[00:41:45] the oxymoron of that is I just think whilst that's something I have in my head

[00:41:49] that I'd like to do,

[00:41:50] I love being busy and I,

[00:41:52] you know,

[00:41:53] probably get bored after the first week and be like,

[00:41:55] right,

[00:41:55] I want to come up with a new idea or a new project or something different.

[00:41:58] Yeah.

[00:41:59] Yeah.

[00:42:00] I mean,

[00:42:00] we,

[00:42:00] I don't know if you knew,

[00:42:01] but we,

[00:42:01] I launched the sunglasses company,

[00:42:03] uh,

[00:42:04] kind of just pre COVID as well.

[00:42:06] So that was another little side project where it was just like,

[00:42:08] Oh yeah,

[00:42:09] we,

[00:42:09] I was kind of feeling like I wasn't busy enough,

[00:42:11] I guess.

[00:42:12] And,

[00:42:12] uh,

[00:42:13] I,

[00:42:13] I was just annoyed,

[00:42:14] you know,

[00:42:14] I'm,

[00:42:15] I don't know how you get on with sunglasses,

[00:42:16] but I'm always breaking them,

[00:42:17] scratching them.

[00:42:18] And then the lenses get scratched and you just put them on.

[00:42:21] And every time you wear them,

[00:42:22] they annoy you,

[00:42:22] but you can't get replacement lenses.

[00:42:24] And it's just a real kind of frustration.

[00:42:26] And this was sort of five years ago now,

[00:42:28] and you can get replacement lenses in some countries,

[00:42:31] like I know Australia,

[00:42:32] you can,

[00:42:32] and America is a company that does it.

[00:42:34] Um,

[00:42:35] but it was just really,

[00:42:36] really sort of bugging me.

[00:42:37] So I teamed up with a mate of mine and we launched a company called face plant,

[00:42:40] which were the world's most sustainable sunglasses.

[00:42:42] So recycled plastic frames,

[00:42:46] replaceable biodegradable lenses.

[00:42:47] So if you do scratch the lenses,

[00:42:48] they biodegrade to nothing.

[00:42:50] You just pop new lenses in.

[00:42:51] Um,

[00:42:52] so yeah,

[00:42:52] that was,

[00:42:53] that was,

[00:42:53] that was a busy couple of years when I was doing that.

[00:42:56] I've now taken a step back from that.

[00:42:57] So the company's still there,

[00:42:58] face plant,

[00:42:59] um,

[00:42:59] dot life,

[00:43:00] we face plant dot life is a web address.

[00:43:02] And,

[00:43:03] you know,

[00:43:03] we're still selling sunglasses,

[00:43:04] but I'm just a silent,

[00:43:05] um,

[00:43:06] you know,

[00:43:06] silent partner.

[00:43:07] So I don't get too involved in it apart from wearing the sunglasses.

[00:43:10] It was great.

[00:43:17] You're going to design the sunglasses.

[00:43:18] He's like,

[00:43:18] no,

[00:43:18] no,

[00:43:18] I just do graphics.

[00:43:19] I'm not designing sunglasses.

[00:43:20] I was like,

[00:43:21] okay,

[00:43:21] so who's good.

[00:43:22] Oh,

[00:43:22] okay.

[00:43:22] There's just me and you.

[00:43:23] So I guess I'm designing the sunglasses.

[00:43:25] So I was like,

[00:43:26] right.

[00:43:26] I'm going to turn my hand to kind of designing sunglasses in there.

[00:43:30] And I'm having a crack at that.

[00:43:31] but,

[00:43:31] but it was,

[00:43:32] it was kind of,

[00:43:33] we could do that because we'd,

[00:43:34] we'd taken on a lot of staff at the magazine.

[00:43:36] So after COVID,

[00:43:38] um,

[00:43:38] we kind of,

[00:43:39] you know,

[00:43:40] the,

[00:43:40] the worst thing about COVID was for the publishing industry.

[00:43:43] And it is the same in every time there's a panic.

[00:43:45] Like every brand goes,

[00:43:47] right,

[00:43:47] pull the marketing budget.

[00:43:48] Let's stop spending money on marketing and just see what happens.

[00:43:50] So COVID hit.

[00:43:51] Everyone wanted to pull their marketing budget.

[00:43:53] We kind of,

[00:43:54] you know,

[00:43:55] stopped,

[00:43:55] stopped chronic as it was then,

[00:43:57] uh,

[00:43:58] and just kept like a surf mag going.

[00:44:00] We didn't publish the bike magazine either.

[00:44:01] And we just kind of like shrunk the company down just to survive that period.

[00:44:05] So I was kind of thinking,

[00:44:06] oh,

[00:44:06] I've got a bit of time.

[00:44:07] I could do a bit of this and,

[00:44:08] you know,

[00:44:09] get some time on the sunglasses.

[00:44:10] But then of course,

[00:44:11] once we started ramping up the publishing business again,

[00:44:13] we ended up with employing lots more staff and getting lots more people in board.

[00:44:17] And all three magazines were being published.

[00:44:19] And then the sunglasses were going,

[00:44:20] it was just a bit crazy.

[00:44:21] And it was like,

[00:44:22] yeah,

[00:44:22] no,

[00:44:22] I've bitten off way more than I could chew here.

[00:44:27] Time to throttle back a little bit.

[00:44:29] That's a hell of a story,

[00:44:31] man.

[00:44:31] Thanks for sharing that with us.

[00:44:32] That's awesome.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:35] It's,

[00:44:35] it's,

[00:44:35] it's fun.

[00:44:36] I mean,

[00:44:36] I just,

[00:44:37] I just get,

[00:44:37] I don't know.

[00:44:38] I don't,

[00:44:38] I don't get bored.

[00:44:39] I just like doing things and there's often things that I'll look at and I think I could do that differently or I might be able to do that better.

[00:44:45] So why not have a go at it and see if I can,

[00:44:48] um,

[00:44:49] you know,

[00:44:49] I like being challenged a little bit like learning all these sports,

[00:44:52] right?

[00:44:53] You know,

[00:44:53] first time I jumped off a dock,

[00:44:55] dock starting,

[00:44:56] I was like,

[00:44:56] Oh my God,

[00:44:56] that was scary.

[00:44:57] And then the second time I was like,

[00:44:58] that's terrifying.

[00:44:59] And the third time I was like,

[00:45:00] I really don't think dock starting for me,

[00:45:02] but because my buddy's there and he kind of went,

[00:45:04] Oh no,

[00:45:04] I'm quite enjoying it.

[00:45:05] I sort of forced myself to throw myself off a couple more times.

[00:45:08] And I'm like,

[00:45:09] Ooh,

[00:45:10] now I'm not nearly stabbing myself to death on the foil or hitting my head on the dock or,

[00:45:14] or terrifying myself.

[00:45:15] I kind of got it.

[00:45:16] And then the challenge of it kind of gets me.

[00:45:18] And then I just,

[00:45:19] I get the bit between my teeth and I'm like really quite focused and driven when I get that challenge.

[00:45:24] Um,

[00:45:25] and that's what part of living is,

[00:45:27] right?

[00:45:27] It's,

[00:45:27] you know,

[00:45:28] having some fun and getting out there and doing fun things.

[00:45:31] So instead of spending,

[00:45:33] like,

[00:45:34] do you watch a lot of movies or a lot of TV or into,

[00:45:37] or is it mainly you'll kind of harness that energy into the projects and stuff that you're passionate about?

[00:45:42] Cause I know there's people on both sides of the fence.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:45] So I spent what,

[00:45:46] 15 years without a television,

[00:45:48] um,

[00:45:49] and just didn't,

[00:45:50] didn't have a TV.

[00:45:50] So I've never,

[00:45:52] I would never watch TV.

[00:45:53] I live with my partner now and,

[00:45:55] um,

[00:45:55] she's got two teenage daughters and,

[00:45:58] you know,

[00:45:58] they've obviously got TVs in most rooms of the house.

[00:46:00] So we'll sit,

[00:46:01] but I'll,

[00:46:01] I'll never just watch whatever's on TV.

[00:46:03] I'll watch a series on Netflix because I want to watch it.

[00:46:06] Um,

[00:46:06] but I can't stand it to sit and just put the telly on and be entertained by whatever they're deciding to entertain you with for that hour.

[00:46:13] I just think there's better things to do.

[00:46:15] Um,

[00:46:15] so I get,

[00:46:16] I get panned for being on my phone a lot,

[00:46:18] but it's not social media.

[00:46:20] It's more like emails and,

[00:46:22] you know,

[00:46:22] sorting things out or getting onto Google drive or doing bits and pieces like that.

[00:46:26] So I'm always kind of,

[00:46:28] always kind of working,

[00:46:29] but then also,

[00:46:31] you know,

[00:46:31] I'm sure Susan's going to listen to this and she's going to laugh and just go,

[00:46:34] you're never working.

[00:46:35] But you know,

[00:46:35] for me,

[00:46:36] like being like going winging this morning is work,

[00:46:38] right?

[00:46:43] Foil.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:43] So it's always like,

[00:46:44] it's always work.

[00:46:45] And I,

[00:46:45] I do a lot more kite testing,

[00:46:47] um,

[00:46:48] than foil testing,

[00:46:49] mainly because when,

[00:46:51] when the foiling kind of started and we started the magazine,

[00:46:54] I didn't feel I was a good enough foiler to be like respected in terms of saying what my opinion matters,

[00:47:01] you know,

[00:47:01] in terms of foiling and stuff like that.

[00:47:03] So we've got Jack Galloway,

[00:47:04] who's one of the best foilers in UK.

[00:47:06] He's our editor for tonic and he's incredible on a foil,

[00:47:10] like the things he can do.

[00:47:11] I think he did something like 11 kilometers off a dock,

[00:47:15] you know,

[00:47:15] just some stupid,

[00:47:16] like he's just an absolute machine.

[00:47:18] Yeah.

[00:47:18] He's an absolute machine.

[00:47:20] Well into his downwind foiling is really good at that.

[00:47:22] He's kind of been there right at the beginning and he's super young,

[00:47:26] super talented.

[00:47:27] So I let him do a lot of the testing.

[00:47:29] Um,

[00:47:29] and then we've got Liam,

[00:47:31] uh,

[00:47:31] from the generic foiling podcast.

[00:47:32] He does a fair bit of testing for us as well.

[00:47:35] And he's like super analytical and really good.

[00:47:37] So I kind of let all the foiling stuff go to those boys,

[00:47:41] but occasionally I'll be like,

[00:47:42] Oh,

[00:47:42] I'd kind of like to test that because I'd like to have a go on it and see if I

[00:47:45] need that in my quiver and,

[00:47:46] you know,

[00:47:47] see whether I like that.

[00:47:48] So I do,

[00:47:48] I do kind of test things.

[00:47:50] And I feel like now I'm a bit more qualified to actually test,

[00:47:54] you know,

[00:47:54] wing foiling gear.

[00:47:55] Cause I've been doing it a lot longer and I can actually use it and,

[00:47:58] you know,

[00:47:58] to a fairly high standard and stuff like that.

[00:48:00] Whereas in the very early days,

[00:48:02] I felt like I wasn't quite,

[00:48:03] quite at a level that I'd be prepared to kind of say,

[00:48:06] yep,

[00:48:06] I've written this test and you should read it because I know what I'm talking

[00:48:09] about.

[00:48:10] Whereas now that that's changed.

[00:48:11] So yeah,

[00:48:13] every day at the beach,

[00:48:13] I say that's work.

[00:48:16] That isn't for those who might not know what goes into testing.

[00:48:20] Um,

[00:48:22] can you kind of explain that process a little bit?

[00:48:25] Are you being critical?

[00:48:27] Are we kind of,

[00:48:29] cause a lot of times and we don't need to say,

[00:48:31] or we can edit it,

[00:48:32] whatever we want,

[00:48:32] but like,

[00:48:33] um,

[00:48:35] normally in the industry,

[00:48:36] there's a bit of a trend of just omitting rather than just kind of

[00:48:39] highlighting positives.

[00:48:40] Are you able to actually give more specific opinions that push stuff

[00:48:43] forward or you still have to be careful as well?

[00:48:46] It's really interesting,

[00:48:48] right?

[00:48:48] And the testing thing is,

[00:48:49] is the huge part of our job.

[00:48:52] So,

[00:48:52] you know,

[00:48:52] I've tested,

[00:48:53] I think we looked the other day,

[00:48:54] something like 450 tests or something I've written just for the kite

[00:48:57] surfing magazine.

[00:48:58] So that's before you take into the,

[00:49:00] the mountain bike mag and the tonic mag.

[00:49:02] That's like a lot of test reports to it's proven over the years.

[00:49:05] So I've written a lot of kit and the way that I come at it is when I

[00:49:09] used to read the windsurfing magazine in the days of old,

[00:49:12] I would read the test reports and you have the little bars of one to five,

[00:49:16] you know,

[00:49:16] what's the fastest?

[00:49:17] Oh,

[00:49:17] number five.

[00:49:18] I want that board because it's the fastest board.

[00:49:20] That's what I want.

[00:49:20] And you would completely disregard the board that got four or the board that

[00:49:24] got three,

[00:49:24] because it's not as good as that one,

[00:49:25] because that one got five.

[00:49:27] So I've always said,

[00:49:28] like,

[00:49:28] I wanted to remove that from our test.

[00:49:30] So right from when I started working at kite surf UK,

[00:49:32] I said,

[00:49:33] no more bars saying what's good,

[00:49:35] what's not.

[00:49:35] I want it to be a much more subjective written review where someone's got to

[00:49:39] read it and engage in the review.

[00:49:40] And I also want it to be honest.

[00:49:43] Now the honesty side of it gets you into trouble because it's a small industry.

[00:49:48] So the biggest thing people say to us is always like,

[00:49:50] Oh,

[00:49:50] why can't you be like top gear?

[00:49:51] Which I'm sure you've probably heard of.

[00:49:53] It's a motorsport magazine owned by the BBC.

[00:49:56] So it's actually a TV magazine,

[00:49:58] right?

[00:49:58] And it's owned by the BBC,

[00:49:59] which is a publicly funded company,

[00:50:01] right?

[00:50:02] They don't have to answer to advertisers.

[00:50:03] In fact,

[00:50:04] they don't have any advertising on the channel.

[00:50:06] It's the British broadcasting corporation.

[00:50:08] And the guys in that get paid an absolute fortune to say whatever the hell they

[00:50:12] like.

[00:50:12] And the brands that they're testing just have to sit up and lump it because,

[00:50:16] you know,

[00:50:17] that you're not paying for advertising.

[00:50:18] We can sell what we want.

[00:50:19] And so people say,

[00:50:20] Oh,

[00:50:21] why don't you do that?

[00:50:21] Why don't you do that?

[00:50:22] It'd be so much better if you do that.

[00:50:23] And there have been magazines that have done that.

[00:50:26] Um,

[00:50:27] certainly in the mountain bike world,

[00:50:28] I don't think anyone's ever really tried to do it in the water sports world,

[00:50:31] but certainly the mountain bike world.

[00:50:33] And they just don't last because very quickly you piss off the people that are sending you

[00:50:37] the product to test and they'll just go,

[00:50:39] Oh,

[00:50:39] we're not going to send them our product because they wrote a bad test.

[00:50:41] And you know,

[00:50:42] why we want to work with those guys.

[00:50:44] Those guys are assholes.

[00:50:45] We don't want to be associated with them.

[00:50:46] And so it's really difficult.

[00:50:48] It's a small industry,

[00:50:49] but what we've always said is that we pride ourselves on our honesty.

[00:50:53] So if we are writing a test for someone,

[00:50:55] we'll say that,

[00:50:56] you know,

[00:50:57] look,

[00:50:57] we're honest in our reviews.

[00:50:58] So you might not like what we review,

[00:51:00] but we will share it with you.

[00:51:01] And interestingly,

[00:51:02] just had a conversation with Gary Siskar,

[00:51:05] who's the brand manager at Ride Engine.

[00:51:07] I've also in the past had really long discussions with Mike Raper from North when they first launched their first battery kites and things like that.

[00:51:16] I've had a company once screaming at me down the telephone whilst I was driving on the motorway,

[00:51:22] like getting really upset.

[00:51:23] And this isn't because we say bad things or we say nasty things.

[00:51:26] What I always say to people is we're honest.

[00:51:28] And if,

[00:51:29] you know,

[00:51:30] if we want to get that trust from the user in our reviews,

[00:51:34] it's got to be because we're honest.

[00:51:36] If we're just saying everything's great,

[00:51:37] then everything's great.

[00:51:38] They thought that was great.

[00:51:39] They thought this was great.

[00:51:40] But if they're actually analytically looking at what that product is,

[00:51:44] who it's aimed for,

[00:51:45] what kind of ride is going to enjoy that product,

[00:51:47] whether they are going to enjoy that product or whether it's better suited to someone else,

[00:51:51] then that can sometimes,

[00:51:53] you know,

[00:51:53] upset people or,

[00:51:54] you know,

[00:51:54] hey,

[00:51:55] we meant this product for this,

[00:51:56] but we're like,

[00:51:56] well,

[00:51:56] we just find this a bit hard to use or it's not that easy and things.

[00:52:00] So we're always pretty honest and pretty critical in what we do.

[00:52:04] But then when a product is good,

[00:52:06] it means it's really,

[00:52:07] you know,

[00:52:08] it gets a good review.

[00:52:09] People will respect that a lot more.

[00:52:10] And the brand managers seem to appreciate that because I always say that to them.

[00:52:14] I say,

[00:52:14] look,

[00:52:14] you know,

[00:52:14] if we don't like something,

[00:52:15] we will give you feedback.

[00:52:17] We'll give you a chance to,

[00:52:18] you know,

[00:52:18] we'll always give you a chance to respond and answer those.

[00:52:21] We might have discovered something that they know loads about and they fixed.

[00:52:26] And it's because of this,

[00:52:27] that that does that,

[00:52:28] you know,

[00:52:28] for instance,

[00:52:28] I was talking about a spreader bar and I just mentioned that when you're not wearing a wetsuit,

[00:52:33] it's not super comfortable if you're doing loads of big jumps because the ball from the kite's pulling up vertically.

[00:52:37] It digs into your ribs a little bit.

[00:52:39] It could have perhaps been made a thicker spreader bar pad.

[00:52:41] And they were like,

[00:52:42] well,

[00:52:42] actually we wanted to make it thinner because it's lighter.

[00:52:44] We were going for a harness that was under one kilo.

[00:52:47] So it's designed more around that.

[00:52:49] And you go,

[00:52:49] okay,

[00:52:49] fair enough.

[00:52:50] So then you can adjust your review accordingly to still include your comments,

[00:52:54] but to take in their feedback too.

[00:52:56] And that's the kind of much better way of doing it.

[00:52:58] I've always said that it's not our business to put someone out of business.

[00:53:01] So if we just start saying something's really terrible and we hate this or we hate that.

[00:53:07] But nine times out of 10,

[00:53:08] most product is good these days.

[00:53:10] And that's why every review is good,

[00:53:12] which is the classic retort you get.

[00:53:14] But people will funnily enough do a lot of their own testing,

[00:53:16] have a lot of testers,

[00:53:17] have really good designers,

[00:53:18] and they all make pretty decent product.

[00:53:21] But we have written reviews in the past that we've been allowed to publish because we've said to the brand managers,

[00:53:26] can we publish this review?

[00:53:28] And they're like,

[00:53:28] yeah,

[00:53:28] no,

[00:53:29] that's fine.

[00:53:29] You can publish it.

[00:53:30] But with us,

[00:53:31] it's always a kind of,

[00:53:32] you know,

[00:53:32] you've got to read between the lines,

[00:53:33] you've got to read the review,

[00:53:35] and then you'll get the kind of full story out of it.

[00:53:38] But the process of it is,

[00:53:39] it takes time.

[00:53:40] You know,

[00:53:41] I always say that we want the product for a good amount of time.

[00:53:44] We want to ride it in different conditions.

[00:53:46] We want to ride it with different people if possible,

[00:53:48] so we can kind of get different body weights on it and stuff like that,

[00:53:51] and kind of get a real mix and then get that feedback from people so that we come up with a really good,

[00:53:56] honest review that we can be proud of.

[00:53:59] And it's certainly one of the most popular parts of our business,

[00:54:02] for sure.

[00:54:03] Like the reviews are where we get a lot of our Google traffic from.

[00:54:07] It's what people search for.

[00:54:08] And I think if we weren't doing reviews,

[00:54:10] it'd be a real detriment to the magazine.

[00:54:13] Well,

[00:54:13] I think that's one,

[00:54:15] obviously that's one massive way for somebody brand new to try to buy something.

[00:54:19] They're either going to talk to their friends or their community.

[00:54:21] Social media apparently is not a big thing,

[00:54:23] obviously,

[00:54:24] because athletes will push whatever they ride and they have to,

[00:54:26] and it helps with their,

[00:54:28] obviously their income.

[00:54:29] But in this kind of thing,

[00:54:31] they're hoping for as much like subjectivity as possible.

[00:54:35] So when they go get something,

[00:54:37] because everything is becoming so much better,

[00:54:40] obviously,

[00:54:40] and especially in the wing world,

[00:54:42] like you'll find,

[00:54:43] and brands are able to try different brands equipment.

[00:54:46] You know what I mean?

[00:54:47] Like everybody's kind of sort of working together to push the bar.

[00:54:50] So I can only assume that that would be a pretty popular section to somebody brand new.

[00:54:58] And I'm sure you've done it,

[00:54:59] right?

[00:54:59] If you,

[00:55:00] if the microphone that you're using,

[00:55:02] right,

[00:55:02] I can see it's an audio technica,

[00:55:03] which is a super nice microphone,

[00:55:05] I bet you read some reviews on it.

[00:55:06] And I bet what you did was you did a load of searching to find out what was the best microphone for doing a podcast.

[00:55:12] And you came up with that one.

[00:55:13] And then you probably even read a few reviews on it,

[00:55:15] then made the decision to purchase it.

[00:55:17] And then you probably went back and read more reviews because you wanted to make sure you've made the right choice.

[00:55:22] Right?

[00:55:22] And that's nine times out of 10,

[00:55:24] what someone's reading a review for is they've already made the decision in their head.

[00:55:28] They like the way the Nash product has a skull on it or something,

[00:55:31] or they like the colors of the new Cabrinha product,

[00:55:33] or they like the way that the core stuff's all white and black,

[00:55:36] or whatever it might be.

[00:55:37] They're associated with that brand.

[00:55:39] They like it.

[00:55:40] And nine times out of 10,

[00:55:41] they're wanting to read a review that kind of affirms that buying decision.

[00:55:44] So they're looking for something that's making them feel happy within themselves as to what that buying decision is.

[00:55:50] And so it's an interesting thing.

[00:55:52] Everything I buy,

[00:55:52] I always do so much research on and I'll review the hell out of it.

[00:55:56] And I'll make sure that I'm getting,

[00:55:57] whether it's camera gear or headphones or whatever it might be,

[00:56:01] I'm making sure I'm getting something that I think is going to be great.

[00:56:04] But what people might even do is they'll gravitate towards the positive reviews to reaffirm their purchase choice.

[00:56:12] And then they'll be going,

[00:56:12] well, all the reviews are positive.

[00:56:13] And it's like,

[00:56:14] well,

[00:56:14] you're looking for positive reviews because you'd already decided to buy it subconsciously.

[00:56:18] So you wanted to reaffirm that what you'd chosen to buy was good.

[00:56:21] So it's kind of an interesting thing,

[00:56:23] but it's a huge section of the magazine.

[00:56:25] It's really,

[00:56:25] really popular.

[00:56:27] You know,

[00:56:27] and for us,

[00:56:28] it's,

[00:56:28] it's really important to have that in there.

[00:56:30] And it's ever so time consuming.

[00:56:32] It takes an awful lot of effort.

[00:56:34] And it's,

[00:56:35] you know,

[00:56:35] I'd love it if we didn't have to do,

[00:56:36] for me as a publisher,

[00:56:38] if we didn't have to do reviews,

[00:56:39] it'd be so much easier because getting the equipment,

[00:56:42] shipping the equipment back,

[00:56:43] finding the time to be on the equipment.

[00:56:44] It's like a huge,

[00:56:45] huge job,

[00:56:46] but it's such a key part of the magazine.

[00:56:49] We kind of have to do it.

[00:56:50] And we're fortunate that we've got a bunch of good testers that we can rely on.

[00:56:53] And that will help us out.

[00:56:54] That are keen to,

[00:56:55] you know,

[00:56:56] test things and,

[00:56:56] and put things through its paces.

[00:56:58] And so that helps a lot,

[00:56:59] but it's definitely probably the hardest part of any publishing operations that reviews.

[00:57:03] Now,

[00:57:03] somebody brand new to tonic.

[00:57:05] What else do you guys offer in your magazine?

[00:57:07] So I always call it like the three T's.

[00:57:10] I don't want to give away too much to my competitors,

[00:57:12] but they tend to copy what we do anyway.

[00:57:14] But the three T's are the tests,

[00:57:16] which we've just talked about.

[00:57:18] Technique is the,

[00:57:19] the,

[00:57:19] probably the most important thing is the technique and then travel.

[00:57:23] So I look at it.

[00:57:25] If I was a,

[00:57:26] if I'm,

[00:57:26] if I'm just a,

[00:57:27] you know,

[00:57:27] an average dude who's wing foiling at the weekends.

[00:57:30] And what do I want to know about,

[00:57:32] right?

[00:57:32] I want to get better at wing foiling.

[00:57:34] So I want to learn technique.

[00:57:35] I'm probably buying new gear because I want to upgrade my gear or whatever.

[00:57:38] So I want to be reading tests.

[00:57:40] And then I'm probably going to want to go somewhere sunny and do the sport that I love

[00:57:43] because it sucks at home because it's cold and it's miserable.

[00:57:46] And I want to get off and do something like that.

[00:57:48] And so that's always been the pillar of what we've done is those three things.

[00:57:52] I think resonate with people.

[00:57:54] I don't think people really care too much about what the latest,

[00:57:59] you know,

[00:57:59] 16 year old has got to say about the meaning of life or anything like that.

[00:58:03] So we do interviews and we do things like that.

[00:58:06] But for me,

[00:58:07] the real core of the magazine is those things that people are actually interested in.

[00:58:11] You know,

[00:58:11] I always come at it as if I'm,

[00:58:12] if I'm,

[00:58:13] if I'm just that dude,

[00:58:14] what do I want to know about?

[00:58:15] And I want to improve the way that I ride.

[00:58:17] I want to learn new things.

[00:58:19] I want to get new gear and see what the latest gear is and see whether the kit

[00:58:22] I've got is better than the kit that's coming out or whether I need to upgrade.

[00:58:26] And then,

[00:58:27] you know,

[00:58:27] I want to travel because we will love to travel.

[00:58:29] So those are the three core parts of the magazine.

[00:58:31] Of course,

[00:58:32] we've got loads of interviews,

[00:58:33] fancy photos and things like that.

[00:58:35] We do a lot of video stuff as well.

[00:58:37] So there's video reviews and the video technique.

[00:58:40] The technique thing's great.

[00:58:42] We've got Christian and Corrine who I've worked with since 2005,

[00:58:48] I think on the original Kite Surf paper magazine.

[00:58:50] And then they switched and came over to IK Surf Mag when we started that.

[00:58:55] And I said to them,

[00:58:55] I said,

[00:58:55] I will make you two of the most famous people in kiteboarding if you come with me.

[00:58:59] And they were like,

[00:59:01] okay,

[00:59:01] yeah,

[00:59:01] that sounds good.

[00:59:02] And they are probably the most famous people in kiteboarding in terms of,

[00:59:05] you know,

[00:59:05] who the average Joe aspires to because they're always reading their technique articles.

[00:59:10] They've got this amazing coaching business,

[00:59:12] which is completely sold out all the time.

[00:59:14] Like,

[00:59:14] you know,

[00:59:15] it's great.

[00:59:16] They're lovely people.

[00:59:16] I barely get to see them because they're so busy running their coaching business.

[00:59:20] They're always traveling,

[00:59:21] always fully booked,

[00:59:22] really enjoying that.

[00:59:24] So it's kind of cool.

[00:59:24] And they came over and do our tonic coaching as well.

[00:59:27] So some of their videos on YouTube have had like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of views now,

[00:59:32] which is great.

[00:59:33] So they've been doing a really good job.

[00:59:36] Yeah,

[00:59:36] they just really break things down nicely.

[00:59:39] They're very experienced instructors through all water sports.

[00:59:43] You know,

[00:59:43] Christian started windsurfing,

[00:59:46] the same sort of background as me.

[00:59:47] So he's been teaching all his life.

[00:59:49] So,

[00:59:49] so they're pretty dialed in.

[00:59:51] And then the travel stuff is either we've traveled there,

[00:59:54] what we've written about,

[00:59:55] or we try and get people to travel,

[00:59:57] you know,

[00:59:57] that have been traveling to write his stories and look at it.

[01:00:00] And again,

[01:00:00] with the travel side,

[01:00:01] you know,

[01:00:01] I don't want to write a story about,

[01:00:03] you know,

[01:00:04] some magical,

[01:00:05] I want to know how you get there,

[01:00:06] you know,

[01:00:07] what the flights are going to cost me,

[01:00:09] what the food's going to be like,

[01:00:10] what the accommodation is going to be like,

[01:00:11] what can I expect on the water?

[01:00:13] You know,

[01:00:13] things that we'd want to know.

[01:00:15] That's what I want to try and convey.

[01:00:16] In a travel article.

[01:00:17] So it's useful to the reader.

[01:00:19] And I think that's what resonates with people.

[01:00:21] People who get,

[01:00:22] you know,

[01:00:22] read tonic,

[01:00:23] they get quite a lot out of it.

[01:00:25] And of course we give it all away for free.

[01:00:26] So we've never charged a penny for any one of our magazines.

[01:00:29] It's totally free.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:31] Whole magazine is totally free.

[01:00:32] You don't have to pay anything.

[01:00:33] You don't get last month's issue.

[01:00:34] You get this,

[01:00:35] this month's issue,

[01:00:36] bang on,

[01:00:37] totally free.

[01:00:37] It doesn't cost me.

[01:00:38] You can subscribe to the magazine.

[01:00:39] It doesn't cost a penny.

[01:00:40] Just give us your email address.

[01:00:42] We'll stick it in your inbox every time you want.

[01:00:44] It costs you absolutely nothing to read tonic magazine or I could surf magazine.

[01:00:48] It never will.

[01:00:49] So that's our,

[01:00:51] that's our USP.

[01:00:52] That's how we pitch it to the brands because we have loads and loads and loads of readers because there's no barrier to entry.

[01:00:58] You know,

[01:00:59] one of the things on the internet is you're only ever one click away from social media or YouTube or whatever it might be that's your poison on the internet.

[01:01:08] So if you turn up to our website and you're trying to read our magazine and you've got to click things a few times,

[01:01:13] you've got to put your email address in,

[01:01:15] you've got to do this.

[01:01:16] You're going to go,

[01:01:16] oh,

[01:01:16] you know what?

[01:01:16] I can't be bothered.

[01:01:17] So with us,

[01:01:18] it's a one click thing.

[01:01:19] You come to the website,

[01:01:20] there's a header called magazine.

[01:01:21] You click on that and you're reading the magazine.

[01:01:23] It's one click and you're in rather than having to like put your details in,

[01:01:28] give us a load of stuff or anything like that.

[01:01:30] It's just a super straightforward,

[01:01:31] simple transaction.

[01:01:33] And that's been our,

[01:01:34] our sort of our golden,

[01:01:35] um,

[01:01:37] unique formula,

[01:01:37] I guess that no one seems to be competing with us with,

[01:01:40] you know,

[01:01:40] not many people are doing that.

[01:01:41] Everyone else is charging or giving you last issues copy for free when it's out of date.

[01:01:47] And,

[01:01:47] you know,

[01:01:47] they've kind of tried to sell it as much as possible.

[01:01:49] Whereas we just said,

[01:01:50] no,

[01:01:50] we'll just give it away for free.

[01:01:52] Um,

[01:01:53] you know,

[01:01:53] and that's,

[01:01:54] that seems to work.

[01:01:55] People like that,

[01:01:56] you know,

[01:01:56] it's easy.

[01:01:57] Yeah,

[01:01:57] no,

[01:01:57] it's easy for them.

[01:01:58] And then I think for some reason,

[01:02:00] maybe a part of them will think that it's a little bit more authentic for some reason.

[01:02:05] Like there's a part of it that's like,

[01:02:06] well,

[01:02:08] yeah.

[01:02:08] Anyways,

[01:02:09] that's exciting then.

[01:02:10] Yeah.

[01:02:11] Do you have,

[01:02:11] yeah,

[01:02:12] it's good.

[01:02:13] We can,

[01:02:14] you can give us money.

[01:02:14] Of course we have an option to subscribe at a level where you can give us a five or a month or two quid a month or a bit of beer money or whatever it might be.

[01:02:21] But that's totally optional.

[01:02:22] You know,

[01:02:22] if you just want to read it,

[01:02:23] you can come in and read it as much as you want.

[01:02:25] And then if you like what we do,

[01:02:26] you can obviously support us.

[01:02:28] And we do ask that a little bit more,

[01:02:29] because the brands in the industry,

[01:02:32] as I'm sure you know,

[01:02:32] are all struggling with the overstocking issue and things that have been happening.

[01:02:36] And so,

[01:02:36] you know,

[01:02:37] our,

[01:02:37] our,

[01:02:37] our revenue is definitely down from the sort of where it needs to be.

[01:02:41] So the supporters that support us really make a big difference as well,

[01:02:45] because they just give us a little monthly subscription,

[01:02:47] the cost of a beer or something like that.

[01:02:49] And that just helps,

[01:02:50] you know,

[01:02:50] with getting the magazine out there because it can all cost money to get it done.

[01:02:54] You know,

[01:02:54] it's not,

[01:02:54] it's not easy to do what we do.

[01:02:56] It's a lot of work for not a lot of return,

[01:02:58] but we do it because we're super passionate about it and we love it.

[01:03:02] Yeah,

[01:03:02] no,

[01:03:03] that's a,

[01:03:04] yeah,

[01:03:04] that's the main staple in this industry is passion and push it out.

[01:03:09] Where do you think foiling is going?

[01:03:11] Cause you probably have your ear to the ground even better than most people.

[01:03:17] Have you tried parowing?

[01:03:19] Do you think that's going to be the next thing?

[01:03:22] I've not tried the parowing yet.

[01:03:24] So I'm keen to try it.

[01:03:26] I did have a look at,

[01:03:28] is it a board ride in Maui?

[01:03:29] I went on their website when they launched it.

[01:03:31] And then I just kind of laughed at the price.

[01:03:32] I was like,

[01:03:33] Oh wow.

[01:03:34] You can buy like a fly surfer peak,

[01:03:37] which is their single skin kite that you can use for snow kiting or even

[01:03:41] kite foiling.

[01:03:42] And it's,

[01:03:42] it's like a quarter of the price of what board riding Maui are charging for.

[01:03:47] And it comes with a bar and line.

[01:03:48] So you kind of like these guys are onto something great.

[01:03:51] They're doing it,

[01:03:52] but that is a kind of a lot of money for a single skin bit of cloth.

[01:03:55] So I instantly was like,

[01:03:57] well,

[01:03:57] I'm not buying one of those just to try it.

[01:03:59] I'll wait until,

[01:03:59] you know,

[01:04:00] mainstream gets hold of it.

[01:04:01] But it's kind of interesting because I think for us in the industry,

[01:04:05] there's always this,

[01:04:06] Oh,

[01:04:06] what's the latest thing in foiling going to be?

[01:04:08] What,

[01:04:08] where's it going?

[01:04:09] What's the future,

[01:04:10] you know,

[01:04:10] downwinding?

[01:04:11] Is it going to be this?

[01:04:12] Is it going to be that?

[01:04:13] But I think it's important to remember who actually does the sport,

[01:04:16] right?

[01:04:17] And most people that do the sport,

[01:04:18] they've got a wife,

[01:04:20] a couple of kids,

[01:04:20] they've got a full-time job.

[01:04:22] They can go at the weekends and at the weekends,

[01:04:25] they might have family commitments.

[01:04:26] They might have to get a netball practice.

[01:04:28] They might have to go to a soccer game or whatever it might be.

[01:04:31] Right?

[01:04:31] So these are busy people.

[01:04:32] And by nature of the cost of the sport,

[01:04:35] they are busy,

[01:04:36] right?

[01:04:36] They've got to be busy to pay for the gear and to,

[01:04:38] and to support their family and to live in a house and have a car and stuff

[01:04:42] like that.

[01:04:42] So what I think is sometimes difficult is the industry gets hung up on where

[01:04:47] the sport's going and what the latest,

[01:04:48] greatest new thing is going to be.

[01:04:50] But for the average person doing the sport,

[01:04:53] they're probably just wing foiling.

[01:04:55] You know,

[01:04:55] they're not really interested in jumping on the latest bandwagon and getting a

[01:05:00] power wing and maybe can't afford one or they're not that bussed.

[01:05:03] They're just loving wing foiling.

[01:05:04] And I think wing foiling is so addictive and so much fun.

[01:05:08] Sometimes it's easy to overlook that and think,

[01:05:10] Oh,

[01:05:11] you know,

[01:05:11] what's the latest thing?

[01:05:12] You know,

[01:05:12] I've got a downwind board in the van at the moment because I didn't have a

[01:05:17] downwind board.

[01:05:17] Right.

[01:05:17] And I've been doing prone and dock starting and I've seen all my buddies

[01:05:21] getting into downwind.

[01:05:22] I'm thinking,

[01:05:23] Oh,

[01:05:23] I need to get into the downwind because otherwise I'm not going to be ahead of

[01:05:26] the curve and I'm going to be left behind.

[01:05:28] And that's what I need to do.

[01:05:29] But where I live is just totally inappropriate for downwind.

[01:05:32] Right.

[01:05:33] It's,

[01:05:33] it's all rocky cliffs with little keyhole beaches.

[01:05:36] So if something goes wrong,

[01:05:38] you're just going to get smashed to smithereens on a cliff that you can't even

[01:05:41] climb up out of.

[01:05:42] It's just,

[01:05:43] it doesn't even bear thinking about what I'm going wrong.

[01:05:45] The consequences around it,

[01:05:47] we do downwinders with wings and it's always just like,

[01:05:49] Ooh,

[01:05:50] you know,

[01:05:50] right.

[01:05:50] What's our get out plan.

[01:05:51] It's like,

[01:05:52] I'll get out plan is we make it to where we're going because there is no other

[01:05:55] option in between.

[01:05:56] It's like,

[01:05:56] don't,

[01:05:56] don't have kit failure.

[01:05:58] Don't like mess up.

[01:05:59] Don't hurt yourself because there's really not a lot we can do for you apart

[01:06:02] from,

[01:06:03] you know,

[01:06:03] call the RNL or the coast guard to come and help.

[01:06:06] So,

[01:06:06] so downwinding,

[01:06:07] I got the downwind board because I felt like,

[01:06:10] you know,

[01:06:10] I need to get on it.

[01:06:10] And then I've had it and I've,

[01:06:12] I've used it a few times for winging because it's great in light winds.

[01:06:15] And I can get out and do that.

[01:06:16] And I'm getting,

[01:06:17] that's,

[01:06:17] that's good.

[01:06:17] But just the downwind side of it is just,

[01:06:20] yeah,

[01:06:20] it just doesn't really,

[01:06:21] you know,

[01:06:22] lend itself.

[01:06:22] And then you think,

[01:06:23] okay,

[01:06:23] well,

[01:06:23] I could,

[01:06:23] I could get into like upwinding and downwinding and I could,

[01:06:26] you know,

[01:06:26] go upwind and I could pack down and I could paddle back.

[01:06:29] But then you just think about the time factor of that,

[01:06:31] you know,

[01:06:32] and for me,

[01:06:32] who's got the opportunity to go on the water every day.

[01:06:35] I mean,

[01:06:35] I was out for two hours this morning,

[01:06:37] which is unlike me.

[01:06:38] Normally I'm an hour,

[01:06:39] hour and a half,

[01:06:40] unless,

[01:06:40] you know,

[01:06:40] we've got a deadline on at the moment.

[01:06:42] So I'm a bit busy and,

[01:06:43] you know,

[01:06:44] two hours on a busy day is tricky,

[01:06:45] but most people just don't have that time.

[01:06:47] So I think the latest thing in foiling is going to be ways that wing foilers can enjoy it easier and better.

[01:06:54] I think that's where the focus needs to be.

[01:06:56] I don't think we need to be worrying about what the next thing is.

[01:07:00] I think we need to be worrying about the guy on the street that's doing the sport,

[01:07:03] that is enjoying the sport is how can we make that a better experience for him?

[01:07:08] And I've just been riding some new foils,

[01:07:11] actually,

[01:07:11] the Armstrong HA is not a new year old now,

[01:07:14] but things like that,

[01:07:15] where you've got,

[01:07:16] you know,

[01:07:16] a lot of,

[01:07:17] a lot of lift with much less drag.

[01:07:20] So it's kind of an easy high aspect foil to use.

[01:07:23] I remember the original high aspect foils and it needed a bunch of speed to get them going.

[01:07:28] You kind of hard to keep them going once they were going and it was just,

[01:07:31] Well,

[01:07:31] they would pop out of the air,

[01:07:33] right?

[01:07:33] Yeah.

[01:07:34] And just like,

[01:07:34] and just drop down and,

[01:07:36] you know,

[01:07:36] stall speed was like super sudden and,

[01:07:38] and seeing the development in the shape of the foils now,

[01:07:42] I think that's probably,

[01:07:43] you know,

[01:07:44] it's making products that are more high performance,

[01:07:46] more user friendly.

[01:07:47] And that's got to be better because that guy that hasn't got much time when he gets to the beach,

[01:07:52] if he can maximize that time.

[01:07:54] So he knows that he's going to be up and riding,

[01:07:57] you know,

[01:07:57] because he's got a board that's a bit thinner and it's,

[01:08:00] you know,

[01:08:00] a bit slipperier through the water.

[01:08:01] So if the wind's light,

[01:08:02] he's going to be okay.

[01:08:03] And his foil is going to give him plenty of lift.

[01:08:05] I think that's where we're going to see it go.

[01:08:07] I think the kit's just going to get better.

[01:08:08] And there's always going to be the outliers,

[01:08:11] right?

[01:08:11] There's going to be the places like Hood River,

[01:08:13] places like Maui,

[01:08:14] the places where it's perfect for downwinding,

[01:08:16] where that kind of becomes a bit of a craze and a bit of a thing.

[01:08:20] But I think for most people in Europe,

[01:08:22] you know,

[01:08:23] it doesn't lend itself to those kinds of conditions,

[01:08:25] you know,

[01:08:25] like the F1 boys and they were all over,

[01:08:29] you know,

[01:08:29] this is Raphael and Julian and the guys from the office.

[01:08:32] They're all over the downwind and they love the downwind.

[01:08:34] But Raf bought himself like,

[01:08:35] you know,

[01:08:36] a boat,

[01:08:36] which costs,

[01:08:37] I don't even want to know how much money,

[01:08:39] which facilitates them to be able to go downwind and right?

[01:08:42] Because Raf's got the cash to buy the boat to then go.

[01:08:44] So they're all going,

[01:08:45] oh,

[01:08:45] it's so good.

[01:08:46] The downwind thing's so great.

[01:08:47] And you're going,

[01:08:47] yeah,

[01:08:47] yeah,

[01:08:48] yeah.

[01:08:48] It would be good if I had a boat like that.

[01:08:49] And I could just have my mates and we could go and organize it and you can make it happen.

[01:08:53] So I think,

[01:08:54] you know,

[01:08:54] it's important to think about who,

[01:08:56] who the people doing the sport are.

[01:08:58] And it's the guys that have got the jobs,

[01:09:00] that have got a family,

[01:09:01] that have got limited time.

[01:09:03] And yes,

[01:09:03] we're in that lucky minority where we've got the opportunity to do different things.

[01:09:07] And of course,

[01:09:08] there's always going to be people within the sport that are doing that.

[01:09:11] There'll be people listening to me talking,

[01:09:12] going,

[01:09:13] hang on a minute,

[01:09:13] I've got all the time in the world to go winging.

[01:09:15] And you know what?

[01:09:16] That's great.

[01:09:16] And there are going to be people like that.

[01:09:18] But the bulk of the participants don't have that opportunity.

[01:09:22] You know,

[01:09:22] they've got a job,

[01:09:22] they've got a life,

[01:09:23] they've got other things to do.

[01:09:24] So it's how can we make the enjoyment of the sport better for them?

[01:09:28] And I guess the other,

[01:09:29] the other worry,

[01:09:30] which is something that's happening in kite surfing a lot,

[01:09:32] which probably isn't happening in wing foiling yet because it's so new.

[01:09:35] And that's the attrition of people leaving the sport.

[01:09:38] So,

[01:09:39] you know,

[01:09:39] wing foiling has been around,

[01:09:40] what,

[01:09:40] five,

[01:09:40] six years now.

[01:09:42] Once people get bored of it,

[01:09:43] you know,

[01:09:44] or something else comes along,

[01:09:46] whatever that might be,

[01:09:46] whether that's paddle or,

[01:09:48] you know,

[01:09:48] basketball or whatever it is that comes along and takes their attention away,

[01:09:53] they're going to be leaving the sport.

[01:09:54] So it's how do we get new people in and keep that sport rolling through?

[01:09:58] And I think that all comes from making the equipment easier.

[01:10:00] You know,

[01:10:01] I think you do a fair bit of teaching and coaching and stuff like that.

[01:10:04] And you'll know how much easier it is to teach people on the gear we've got today than it is on the gear you perhaps learn on,

[01:10:11] you know,

[01:10:11] going back.

[01:10:12] So I think that's,

[01:10:13] you know,

[01:10:14] it's maybe not as exciting as,

[01:10:15] oh yeah,

[01:10:16] there's going to be helicopter foiling and,

[01:10:18] you know,

[01:10:18] goodness knows what else is coming.

[01:10:20] But I think it's about,

[01:10:22] you know,

[01:10:22] it's about keeping the industry going and making sure that we've got a future for everybody in the sport because we've got that grassroots,

[01:10:30] everyday weekend warrior sorted.

[01:10:32] They're having a good time and they're enjoying themselves and that's what matters.

[01:10:35] And I think that just comes through better equipment.

[01:10:37] For the first time,

[01:10:38] I think in a long while,

[01:10:39] right,

[01:10:39] we can say that there's so many more kids hopping in to this,

[01:10:43] which between let's say 10 and let's say 20,

[01:10:48] 30,

[01:10:49] you got a good kind of window of what school,

[01:10:53] maybe uni,

[01:10:54] like whatever part-time job stuff.

[01:10:55] So that's like the best opportunity for somebody to put as much energy as they can,

[01:11:01] like all,

[01:11:01] like anybody who is fortunate to find wind earlier.

[01:11:05] So I think that can only be good for the industry as well,

[01:11:08] right?

[01:11:08] Like pushing that because I don't see as many kids getting into windsurfing,

[01:11:12] obviously.

[01:11:12] And then kiting,

[01:11:14] you're a little hesitant because I was giving a lesson to a 13 year olds,

[01:11:18] a neighbor,

[01:11:19] 13.

[01:11:19] And then,

[01:11:20] but now with the advent of social media,

[01:11:22] I find kids will be like,

[01:11:24] they'll be focused for 15 seconds.

[01:11:25] And it'll just disappear.

[01:11:27] So I was like,

[01:11:28] we were out there at Laventana,

[01:11:29] very safe bay.

[01:11:30] I was like,

[01:11:31] all right,

[01:11:31] buddy,

[01:11:31] it's time to get up now.

[01:11:32] And he's like,

[01:11:33] he'll do something,

[01:11:33] but he'll do the same thing for 30 seconds and forget about the next step.

[01:11:37] So I was like,

[01:11:38] ah,

[01:11:39] it doesn't matter.

[01:11:39] Wing is fine,

[01:11:40] right?

[01:11:40] Like you sit down,

[01:11:41] you put your wing down,

[01:11:42] but kite on the other hand,

[01:11:44] um,

[01:11:45] still an amazing activity,

[01:11:46] but you just have to be a bit more present with it.

[01:11:49] Yeah.

[01:11:50] Um,

[01:11:50] so I'm super stoked to see that.

[01:11:52] It can be dangerous.

[01:11:55] And that's why,

[01:11:55] that's why for kids,

[01:11:57] winging is the option,

[01:11:58] right?

[01:11:58] If I had,

[01:11:58] if I had my own kids,

[01:12:00] I would definitely want them to wing rather than kite.

[01:12:02] Because like you say,

[01:12:03] you let go of the wing and it stops.

[01:12:05] It's like windsurfing.

[01:12:06] You let go of the windsurfer and it stops.

[01:12:07] Kiting,

[01:12:08] you're hooked in.

[01:12:09] You've got no chance of hitting that safety release.

[01:12:11] I know we like to call it a safety release,

[01:12:12] but you know,

[01:12:13] by the time you're getting lofted,

[01:12:15] last thing you're thinking about is pulling that.

[01:12:17] In fact,

[01:12:17] you're probably just thinking about pulling on the bar and you end up pulling on one side.

[01:12:21] And we've seen it,

[01:12:21] you know,

[01:12:22] happen all too,

[01:12:22] all too many times.

[01:12:24] So it's a dangerous sport.

[01:12:25] So I think it's,

[01:12:26] it's good that the young kids are getting into it.

[01:12:28] I think there's a,

[01:12:29] there's a danger in,

[01:12:31] in terms of,

[01:12:31] you know,

[01:12:32] the young kids that are getting into it,

[01:12:33] aren't buying gear,

[01:12:34] right?

[01:12:34] Their parents are buying them gear.

[01:12:36] And I think what the sport needs to be really careful of is who's doing the sport and who is buying the gear.

[01:12:43] And the people that are buying the gear and propping the sport up are the,

[01:12:46] you know,

[01:12:46] 40 to 50 year old guys that have got enough money to be able to spend,

[01:12:50] you know,

[01:12:51] two,

[01:12:51] three grand on a setup,

[01:12:52] you know,

[01:12:53] because we,

[01:12:53] we all know you can get gear secondhand cheap,

[01:12:55] right?

[01:12:56] But if everyone's just buying secondhand gear,

[01:12:58] you need people buying the new gear to keep the brands in business,

[01:13:00] to keep the industry turning over,

[01:13:02] right?

[01:13:02] Those people,

[01:13:04] are not your 16 year old kids going and dropping a bunch of money unless they've got,

[01:13:08] you know,

[01:13:08] a nice trust fund or something like that,

[01:13:10] or rich parents.

[01:13:11] And there's a phrase from snowboarding,

[01:13:13] which was thieves and rich kids.

[01:13:14] And they were the only people that could do it because,

[01:13:16] you know,

[01:13:16] you're either robbing someone or you had rich parents that enabled you to go away and

[01:13:20] spend the season in the mountains or something like that.

[01:13:22] So I think it's just important for the industry to remember that,

[01:13:26] you know,

[01:13:26] that probably the people,

[01:13:27] you know,

[01:13:28] I'd say the majority of your audience as well is that bracket of,

[01:13:31] you know,

[01:13:31] 30 to 65.

[01:13:33] 35 primarily men.

[01:13:35] It's older,

[01:13:35] right?

[01:13:36] Yeah.

[01:13:36] Yeah.

[01:13:37] Yeah.

[01:13:37] It's a shame there's not more women involved,

[01:13:39] but you know,

[01:13:40] that's kind of the way that it goes.

[01:13:41] But it's,

[01:13:42] you know,

[01:13:42] one thing I am super stoked on is,

[01:13:44] is,

[01:13:44] is females in sport now.

[01:13:46] And I think it's becoming such a big thing.

[01:13:48] And we've always been really passionate about it as a magazine right from the early days.

[01:13:52] So we,

[01:13:53] we really push like women's kiteboarding,

[01:13:55] women's,

[01:13:56] you know,

[01:13:57] winging as well.

[01:13:58] We have an article each issue,

[01:13:59] which is called insight,

[01:14:00] which looks at women in the industry.

[01:14:02] So it's not just looking at female pro riders in bikinis,

[01:14:05] you know,

[01:14:05] showing their bums off,

[01:14:06] which is something I'm kind of pretty anti as a,

[01:14:08] as a magazine pushing.

[01:14:10] But it's actually like,

[01:14:11] you know,

[01:14:11] women that work in industry.

[01:14:12] So if that's,

[01:14:13] you know,

[01:14:13] the marketing manager for Cuba sports or somebody like that,

[01:14:16] and,

[01:14:16] and talking to them about how they got into it and trying to offer those opportunities to women that might be interested.

[01:14:21] So you don't just have to be a,

[01:14:23] a hot young thing to work in the sport.

[01:14:25] You can actually,

[01:14:26] you know,

[01:14:26] come at it from a different angle.

[01:14:28] So that's something we've been really pushing.

[01:14:30] But like you say,

[01:14:30] the majority of the audience is the same for our audience,

[01:14:33] right?

[01:14:33] It's the,

[01:14:34] it's the 30 to 60 year old people.

[01:14:36] And they're the people that are spending on the gear.

[01:14:38] And that's,

[01:14:39] that's who you've got to make sure you've got to look after them.

[01:14:41] If you alienate those people by saying,

[01:14:43] Hey,

[01:14:43] the sport is all about this,

[01:14:45] which is not something they're ever going to achieve.

[01:14:48] Then that's where you've got to be careful,

[01:14:49] you know,

[01:14:49] and those 30 to 50 year old guys,

[01:14:51] they're not doing back rolls and flips.

[01:14:54] They're not even jumping,

[01:14:55] you know,

[01:14:55] they're just going out and they're cruising and they're loving the sport and they're catching some waves and they're feeling that glide and getting the buzz of it and the fun of being out with their mates or down the beach or whatever it might be.

[01:15:06] But that's what they're doing.

[01:15:06] I think it's,

[01:15:07] it's got to keep your feet grounded to make sure you cater for that.

[01:15:11] Audience,

[01:15:11] because that's the audience that keeps the industry alive.

[01:15:14] Yeah,

[01:15:15] I think there should be a bit of a push towards more appropriate base content,

[01:15:21] especially for those demographics.

[01:15:25] A,

[01:15:26] sure.

[01:15:27] Like there's so many different angles that we can look at.

[01:15:28] I said,

[01:15:29] yeah,

[01:15:29] like we do our best.

[01:15:30] Obviously our channel is tiny on Instagram and stuff,

[01:15:33] but bikini content and stuff.

[01:15:35] People just don't want to see it all the time.

[01:15:37] We also like,

[01:15:38] also my,

[01:15:39] my like students are going to look at,

[01:15:42] well,

[01:15:42] triple backflip.

[01:15:43] I'm never going to be able to do,

[01:15:44] but I'm never seeing a brand put out a 55 year old woman or guy wing foiling and using that as,

[01:15:54] as a content on Instagram or socials.

[01:15:55] It's either sex based selling or like super alpha young selling,

[01:16:01] which is fine.

[01:16:02] I get it.

[01:16:03] Sex sells.

[01:16:04] And so does that sell.

[01:16:05] But I think that's a very good point that you're making that we should look at ways of including everyday people.

[01:16:10] Cause that's who's buying the gear.

[01:16:11] So how do we do that?

[01:16:12] You guys are doing that.

[01:16:14] We're doing that.

[01:16:14] We're starting to have a few more conversations after two years.

[01:16:17] I can actually say a few things before you're so timid and you're not sure what to say,

[01:16:21] but like,

[01:16:22] we've had a little bit of time to get to know people.

[01:16:24] We have meetings with brand managers.

[01:16:26] They're starting to get to know us.

[01:16:27] You're starting to become friendly with people.

[01:16:29] So at that point,

[01:16:30] we're like,

[01:16:30] here's our opinion.

[01:16:31] Is there anything we can do about this to a protect our kids?

[01:16:34] Cause we're getting 15,

[01:16:36] 16,

[01:16:36] 17 year old women now.

[01:16:39] And I don't want to see a trend towards that.

[01:16:41] They're way too young.

[01:16:43] And if you're traveling to Morocco and traveling to different countries,

[01:16:46] it could get dangerous,

[01:16:47] right?

[01:16:48] Cause it's not safe to be that kind of an icon.

[01:16:51] So young.

[01:16:52] And I just think that,

[01:16:54] that we have to find a way of bringing in content that is age appropriate for all of us who want,

[01:17:00] like,

[01:17:00] I'm just starting to get better at my pumping.

[01:17:02] So I put a little Instagram video yesterday and I was more of a ski stance before.

[01:17:08] Cause I'm just an intermediate average rider and I'm not bragging about anything,

[01:17:11] but then the guys were like,

[01:17:12] Oh,

[01:17:12] like move your feet more snowboard stance.

[01:17:14] So yesterday I pumped for 30 seconds on my downwind back home with a different stance further back in the foil on the,

[01:17:22] on my board and light wind on a three meter.

[01:17:24] It was just borderline that I can ride it in.

[01:17:26] And I pumped for 30 seconds and the swell was tiny.

[01:17:29] I was like,

[01:17:29] how the heck did I do that?

[01:17:31] So like,

[01:17:31] clearly I wasn't even pumping right before.

[01:17:34] So like,

[01:17:35] it's all of those things.

[01:17:36] But then if you post that or people ask that,

[01:17:38] it's like,

[01:17:38] Oh,

[01:17:39] like what were you doing different?

[01:17:40] Because here in Mexico for it's primarily,

[01:17:43] let's say 50 to 70 year olds who are just learning.

[01:17:48] Right.

[01:17:49] And say,

[01:17:49] Hey,

[01:17:49] like,

[01:17:50] how are you getting up?

[01:17:51] Like what last,

[01:17:51] last year it was like,

[01:17:52] what foil do you think would be best?

[01:17:54] And should I go with this kind of a board or an inflatable board or,

[01:17:59] and if you can constantly confront them with,

[01:18:04] with images that they don't want to see or other things that they'll never be able to do.

[01:18:10] They're just,

[01:18:11] they're,

[01:18:11] it makes them sad.

[01:18:12] It's frustrating.

[01:18:13] Yeah.

[01:18:13] It's like,

[01:18:14] well,

[01:18:14] why would I do this?

[01:18:15] Like,

[01:18:16] yeah,

[01:18:16] it's a turnoff,

[01:18:17] but it's like,

[01:18:17] it's not,

[01:18:18] it wouldn't be very hard.

[01:18:19] Um,

[01:18:20] and I'm glad you guys are doing that.

[01:18:22] And all of us kind of are trying to help in the feds.

[01:18:25] Like it's accessible and no,

[01:18:27] like,

[01:18:27] don't worry.

[01:18:28] Like we can focus on this area of things,

[01:18:30] bit of a rant there,

[01:18:31] but yeah.

[01:18:31] Yeah.

[01:18:32] Yeah.

[01:18:32] It's,

[01:18:33] it's,

[01:18:33] it's important.

[01:18:34] Right.

[01:18:34] I think the,

[01:18:35] the female thing's really,

[01:18:37] really tricky.

[01:18:37] And we've been,

[01:18:38] you know,

[01:18:39] championing it for years,

[01:18:40] but there was,

[01:18:40] if I don't know if you,

[01:18:42] you know how much kiteboarding you remember,

[01:18:43] but there was a video that Andre Philippe did and he put it on YouTube and it got like half a million views.

[01:18:50] Right.

[01:18:50] And the thumbnail was some hot chick from the Caribbean's bum.

[01:18:53] Right.

[01:18:54] And so the thumbnail for the video was hot chick from the Caribbean's bum.

[01:18:57] Most kiteboarding videos at the time,

[01:18:59] 10,000,

[01:19:00] 15,000 views.

[01:19:01] Andre Philippe post this one.

[01:19:02] It's like half a million views.

[01:19:04] Right.

[01:19:04] So suddenly all of the kiteboarders like,

[01:19:06] Oh,

[01:19:07] so we want views.

[01:19:08] We've got to put bums in videos.

[01:19:09] That's what we do.

[01:19:09] Just,

[01:19:10] and if it's just bums for the thumbnail or whatever it might be,

[01:19:12] but this is what works.

[01:19:13] And there's this real dark period where all the pro riders were just getting women prancing around,

[01:19:18] not kiting,

[01:19:19] you know,

[01:19:20] women can kite.

[01:19:21] Women were kiting at the time,

[01:19:22] but they're just being seen as like sex accessories kind of things to get the views on the videos.

[01:19:27] And we,

[01:19:27] we kind of,

[01:19:28] you know,

[01:19:29] we were guilty of it at first because we saw this thing where,

[01:19:31] Hey,

[01:19:31] if we put a picture of a chicken,

[01:19:32] a bikini suddenly our traffic's like way up.

[01:19:35] Right.

[01:19:35] And so for about a month,

[01:19:37] we kind of were part of the bandwagon.

[01:19:39] And then I just kind of sat there and we employed a couple of women at the time.

[01:19:42] And I was like,

[01:19:42] you know what guys,

[01:19:43] this doesn't feel right.

[01:19:44] Like this doesn't feel legitimate because one,

[01:19:46] I don't think the people that were reaching a kite surfers,

[01:19:48] I think we're just reaching people that want to see a bum on the internet,

[01:19:51] which is 99.9% of the internet.

[01:19:54] And so I don't think it's helping us as a magazine.

[01:19:56] I don't think it's promoting us in the right way.

[01:19:58] I don't think it's something we've associated with.

[01:20:00] So we then made an actual standpoint of never using a bum thumbnail or a sex related thumbnail or anything that would be sex sales.

[01:20:08] Right.

[01:20:08] And we said,

[01:20:08] we would use our own thumbnails.

[01:20:09] So even if they were using a video,

[01:20:11] and then we went one step further,

[01:20:12] we were like,

[01:20:13] right,

[01:20:13] this just doesn't seem to be stopping.

[01:20:14] How can we actually stop this,

[01:20:16] you know,

[01:20:16] and stop riders trying to promote this?

[01:20:18] So we messaged everybody.

[01:20:19] And we just said,

[01:20:19] look,

[01:20:19] we will no longer be promoting videos that feature women as sexual objects on the side of the beach in a bikini prancing around.

[01:20:26] If you've got a woman in a bikini kite surfing,

[01:20:29] great.

[01:20:29] She's kiteboarding.

[01:20:30] That's what we want to see.

[01:20:30] But if you're just using them as fluff for the video so that you get views,

[01:20:35] we're not going to share that content.

[01:20:36] And we stopped sharing all that content.

[01:20:38] And there was a few riders.

[01:20:39] I won't name names,

[01:20:40] but there's a few riders that kind of lost out quite a lot because we were just no longer sharing their stuff with them.

[01:20:45] And we were like pretty strict on it.

[01:20:47] But I think it was,

[01:20:48] it was an important step to take because,

[01:20:51] you know,

[01:20:51] it did sort of set.

[01:20:53] We could have gone down a really dark path and a dark road where we're part of that whole thing.

[01:20:57] And it still happens now.

[01:20:58] Right.

[01:20:58] I see certain riders out there,

[01:21:00] you know,

[01:21:00] wing riders posting content.

[01:21:02] I'm like,

[01:21:02] really,

[01:21:03] you know,

[01:21:03] do you have to be doing that?

[01:21:05] And it's just,

[01:21:06] it's difficult because you've got young girls coming into the sport and,

[01:21:09] and they're thinking,

[01:21:09] you know,

[01:21:10] how do I become a pro rider?

[01:21:11] I've got to get loads of Instagram followers.

[01:21:13] How do you get loads of Instagram followers?

[01:21:14] Wear some skimpy clothing and get loads of men clicking on it.

[01:21:17] You know,

[01:21:18] are those followers actual wing foilers?

[01:21:20] Are they interested in the sport?

[01:21:22] Are they going to buy the product?

[01:21:23] Probably not.

[01:21:23] You know,

[01:21:24] they're just there for a bit of soft,

[01:21:25] soft porn for want of a better word,

[01:21:27] maybe where they are porn hubs banned and they can't access,

[01:21:30] that's the Instagram looking at,

[01:21:32] you know,

[01:21:33] looking at things like this.

[01:21:34] It's just,

[01:21:35] it's kind of sad.

[01:21:35] So I just think it's something we've got to be really careful of.

[01:21:37] And like you say,

[01:21:38] it turns off the core demographic,

[01:21:40] which is,

[01:21:40] you know,

[01:21:41] a lot older.

[01:21:42] And their skill levels are a lot less.

[01:21:44] You know,

[01:21:44] another example was in the kite surfing industry.

[01:21:46] The technique section was always how you do the little handle pass and how you do this move and how you do something.

[01:21:52] And it's something that nobody's ever going to do,

[01:21:53] right?

[01:21:54] You know,

[01:21:54] anyone reading a magazine is never going to aspire to that.

[01:21:57] So we've always said in our technique,

[01:21:59] I think,

[01:21:59] I think the latest one is,

[01:22:00] you know,

[01:22:00] how to do a toeside tack.

[01:22:01] You know,

[01:22:02] it's real basic stuff that people want to learn.

[01:22:05] It's not how do you do a double flip or how do you do a back roll?

[01:22:08] You know,

[01:22:08] most of our readers are never,

[01:22:10] ever going to get to that level.

[01:22:11] So why give them an article telling them how to do it when it's just irrelevant to 90% of them.

[01:22:17] And the guys that want to learn that stuff,

[01:22:19] that want to learn,

[01:22:20] you know,

[01:22:20] the latest spinning magic,

[01:22:22] flipping,

[01:22:22] flipping a hit or whatever it might be.

[01:22:24] They're going to learn it from their mates because they're at that level,

[01:22:27] right?

[01:22:27] They're down the beach doing it with Mallow or doing it with some pro rider.

[01:22:30] And so that's,

[01:22:31] who's going to tell them not a magazine or,

[01:22:32] or a podcast or anything like that.

[01:22:34] It's,

[01:22:34] it's recognizing who's engaging with,

[01:22:38] that content and trying to make sure that your content is aimed at that person.

[01:22:42] And that I think is a big key to success because it's so easy to get caught up in the latest,

[01:22:47] greatest,

[01:22:48] whatever it might be.

[01:22:49] And,

[01:22:49] and actually,

[01:22:50] you know,

[01:22:50] the people that are keeping the sport going and just the basic dudes that are down the beach

[01:22:54] that are slogging away,

[01:22:56] doing the hard yards,

[01:22:57] putting the time in,

[01:22:58] you know,

[01:22:59] wiping out,

[01:23:00] getting up,

[01:23:01] getting back on it,

[01:23:02] giving it another go.

[01:23:03] And they're,

[01:23:03] they're dedicated,

[01:23:04] they're passionate,

[01:23:08] looking at the latest alpha male,

[01:23:10] ripping some new freestyle trip and getting super excited about it.

[01:23:13] They kind of just care about the next session and getting on the water.

[01:23:16] Yeah,

[01:23:17] no,

[01:23:17] exactly.

[01:23:18] And it's nice to have those,

[01:23:19] be able to have those conversations a,

[01:23:21] but then also have that so that brands can hear it.

[01:23:24] And maybe there are other opportunities.

[01:23:25] Um,

[01:23:26] cause I know they have team writers,

[01:23:28] let's say team writers range in ages and all this kind of stuff,

[01:23:30] but the content pushed from what we're seeing is not at all geared towards that demographic.

[01:23:36] Who's actually buying the gear.

[01:23:37] So I think there could be something,

[01:23:39] and I was going to bring this up with a manager.

[01:23:41] I was going to talk with,

[01:23:42] I think next week we're talking with them just to kind of give us our thoughts and feedback of being brand new.

[01:23:47] We're just super passionate.

[01:23:49] We enter into this.

[01:23:50] We're novices.

[01:23:50] We're still learning a ton,

[01:23:52] but just here's our initial thoughts and feedback.

[01:23:55] Take with it what you want.

[01:23:57] But,

[01:23:57] um,

[01:23:58] but this is kind of what we're seeing at our local beach.

[01:24:00] And here in Mexico,

[01:24:01] it's a fair,

[01:24:02] fairly popular spot.

[01:24:03] Like there must've been at least a couple hundred kites out that you navigate around and we're teaching through.

[01:24:08] And,

[01:24:09] and some of them are very respectful and some of them just barge forward,

[01:24:12] just like everything in life.

[01:24:13] But,

[01:24:14] um,

[01:24:16] I,

[01:24:16] I think it's just,

[01:24:17] it's good to have the awareness of it and then we'll see where it goes.

[01:24:20] But I really,

[01:24:22] uh,

[01:24:23] do want to thank you for like taking so much time to chat with us.

[01:24:26] It's been an absolute pleasure,

[01:24:27] Luke.

[01:24:28] It has been a pleasure.

[01:24:29] Um,

[01:24:29] it's always nice to kind of chat and pass on a bit of the story and get the word about tonic out there because,

[01:24:35] you know,

[01:24:36] a lot of people may not know about it or may not have heard of it and may not realize that it's a free resource they can tap into both,

[01:24:43] you know,

[01:24:43] YouTube channel,

[01:24:45] website,

[01:24:45] magazine,

[01:24:46] everything.

[01:24:47] It's all there,

[01:24:47] all the technique.

[01:24:48] You can,

[01:24:48] you get the phone app,

[01:24:49] actually,

[01:24:50] that's the best way for you to get it because you can then just search for all technique articles and watch all the videos and just,

[01:24:55] you know,

[01:24:56] engage in it however you want.

[01:24:57] And it,

[01:24:57] it works really well on your mobile phone.

[01:24:59] So that's what I recommend to anyone listening is just to have a little look.

[01:25:03] I think it's tonic magazine on the app store.

[01:25:06] So that would be available like on Google plus and Apple?

[01:25:10] Google plus and Apple.

[01:25:11] Yeah.

[01:25:12] So it's on all the platforms.

[01:25:14] We always update it as well.

[01:25:16] So we've just done a new update on there.

[01:25:17] So it works really well.

[01:25:18] And it's,

[01:25:19] it's flipping on its head.

[01:25:20] A lot of,

[01:25:21] you know,

[01:25:21] magazines try and put a magazine on your mobile phone and you're never going to be able to read a large format magazine on your mobile phone.

[01:25:27] So we kind of just changed it and it's completely different.

[01:25:30] So we actually,

[01:25:30] we do a magazine for desktop,

[01:25:32] which reads on your laptop and your iPad.

[01:25:34] And then the one that you have on your mobile phones in a completely different format that just works on your mobile phone.

[01:25:39] So it makes it really easy.

[01:25:41] But yeah,

[01:25:41] it's simple,

[01:25:42] free,

[01:25:43] doesn't cost anything.

[01:25:45] Check it out.

[01:25:47] Okay.

[01:25:47] We will do that.

[01:25:48] And then what is your socials website for those that are going to go and listen to this or watch this story after this?

[01:25:56] Uh,

[01:25:56] so if you're interested in whatever I'm doing,

[01:25:59] which you probably aren't,

[01:26:00] it's Roo Chater is,

[01:26:01] uh,

[01:26:01] is the social.

[01:26:02] So that's just,

[01:26:03] uh,

[01:26:03] yeah,

[01:26:04] just Roo Chater on Instagram.

[01:26:05] You can find me.

[01:26:06] I've been posting a bit lately.

[01:26:07] Actually,

[01:26:08] I try and,

[01:26:08] I try and sort of keep people abreast.

[01:26:10] I'm always traveling and doing different things.

[01:26:12] And so I just kind of keep a little bit of a real action going up there.

[01:26:16] So I put a few up.

[01:26:17] So people are enjoying those.

[01:26:18] And then,

[01:26:18] yeah,

[01:26:19] just tonic mag,

[01:26:19] um,

[01:26:20] on socials for anything tonic related.

[01:26:23] And you can,

[01:26:24] um,

[01:26:24] you know,

[01:26:25] follow us on there and check out loads of stuff as Instagram and Facebook and all the usual bits and pieces.

[01:26:30] But yeah,

[01:26:30] it'd be good to,

[01:26:31] you know,

[01:26:32] get a shout out from anyone that does enjoy the magazine.

[01:26:35] If they do just hit us up and let us know.

[01:26:36] And if you found it through this podcast and you enjoy it,

[01:26:39] we always love getting an email from someone saying they like it.

[01:26:41] So that keeps us stoked.

[01:26:43] As you know,

[01:26:43] when you're not getting paid a lot,

[01:26:45] a little kind word in your ear goes a long way.

[01:26:48] Yeah,

[01:26:48] that's very true.

[01:26:49] Keep the passion alive.

[01:26:50] We do need to keep the passion alive.

[01:26:53] Well,

[01:26:53] hey man,

[01:26:53] thanks.

[01:26:53] It's a,

[01:26:54] it was great chat.

[01:26:55] Thanks for joining us today.

[01:26:56] I super appreciate it.

[01:26:58] And,

[01:26:58] uh,

[01:26:59] anyways,

[01:26:59] I'm glad you had an amazing ski vacation.

[01:27:01] The Alps and New Year's was good.

[01:27:03] Yeah.

[01:27:04] Yeah.

[01:27:04] It was fantastic.

[01:27:05] The best ski vacation I ever did have.

[01:27:07] Oh yeah,

[01:27:10] everybody.

[01:27:10] The new year brings in lots of positivities for everyone.

[01:27:14] All right.

[01:27:14] Cheers.