Episode #85 - The story behind ALUULA with Dave Westwood

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. This week we are starting our three-part mini-series with ALUULA. If you haven't heard about them yet, they are a Canadian composites company that are based in Victoria, BC. From outdoor sports to aerospace and everything in between, ALUULA's fabrics are known as game changers across multiple industries. If you are into wind sports like us, then we're certain you've seen their infamous ALUULA Gold as the leading edge material of choice

[00:00:28] by dozens of brands in both wings and kites. On episode number one, we will deep dive into the origin story of ALUULA with Dave Westwood, their Director of Sales and Marketing. On episode number two, we get to learn all about the science behind the making of ALUULA fabrics with Tyler Cuthbert, their Chief Scientific Officer. On our third and final episode of the series, we put it all together. We talk with Dave Westwood and Tyler Cuthbert again,

[00:00:56] but also invite Paula Novotna, Professional Kite and Wing Foiler, along with Kloss Voigt, Production and Marketing Manager at Duotone. So, we hope you enjoy this series. Now, I want to take this opportunity to thank our team for making this show a reality. We have Frank that helps with media and consulting, Matthias on guest relations, and Stefan on audio mastering. A big thank you guys as a lot of work goes into each and every episode.

[00:01:25] Next, I'd like to say a thank you to our partners and sponsors. Visit foillifepodcast.com forward slash sponsors to see who supports us behind the scenes. We want to say thank you again to Norfoils for their continued support, and we are looking forward to working with you guys for the 2025 season. Lastly, make sure to check out our upcoming trips on our website. Visit foillifepodcast.com forward slash trips, and make sure to book your seat for our Bonaire wingfoil adventure.

[00:01:55] Now, I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to the Foil Life Podcast, where we talk about foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy these great sports. All right, Dave, welcome to the show. Great to be here. Yeah, thanks for joining us.

[00:02:18] We are kicking off a three-part miniseries of Alula today, so I'm very excited to learn more about it, where it's made, a lot of questions. I've seen it on the beach, and I've seen it around absolutely everywhere. So I know it's present in the wind sports, but me, myself, I have no idea where else it's present. And then there's also a lot of other people that are wondering, why should I use this yellow fabric?

[00:02:47] Well, why don't I tell you a little bit about what Alula is, and we'll start from there. So Alula isn't necessarily a fabric per se, not just the gold fabric that you would see on the beach. Alula is a process. And what we're doing at Alula is we're fusing technical films to ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene. And what is ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene, you may ask.

[00:03:16] Dynema is a branded version of ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene. And it's a very unique polymer in that it's incredibly strong and incredibly durable. And its strength-to-weight ratio is really unrivaled unless you get into something like an aramid, which is Kevlar, or a carbon fiber. But those materials also have their own issues in terms of their fragility.

[00:03:38] In terms of the environments and making a durable, flexible fabric, ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene is really the best polymer to use. So what we're doing is we're fusing films, technical films, to UH without the use of glues. And what that does is make a material that's lighter and stronger and more durable than anything else on the market. Now, obviously people are going to know, like, where did this idea come from?

[00:04:07] Where on earth did that come from? Yes. So Alula was born out of Winsports, which I think is a nice feather in the cap for Winsports to bring this level of innovation to the rest of the world. Well, I'm sure we'll get into it a bit further along in our conversation. But Alula has many applications outside of Winsports now. So it started to be conceived out of the brand Ocean Rodeo, which is based on Vancouver Island here in Canada.

[00:04:33] And Richard Meyersco, who is the founder and CEO of Ocean Rodeo then, and another guy named Pete, who's a PhD senior chemist. And they were talking. And there's another guy named Ross, who is the lead designer for Ocean Rodeo. And after, you know, designing kites and eventually wings, I mean, I guess primarily kites at that point in time, because winging hadn't come about. We're talking sort of mid 2015s, 2017s.

[00:05:02] They came to the realization that everyone was using the same materials and trying to optimize them better and better. And no one was making any significant leaps forward. And the only way to really innovate in that design was with a new material. And that's where Pete started playing around with it. And the first iterations of the Alula process was born out. So you can imagine there were many iterations and putting a lot of different things together and different materials, different weaves, different films.

[00:05:32] And they landed on the gold fabric that you now see in the majority of wind sports. This was done what they have a lab. Did he do it out of his garage at the start with a couple of beers? Like how did you do you know of that kind of backstory? I can't say. So I started Alula in 2021. I believe Alula launched in wind sports in 2019. So this would have been happening, you know, a year or two before that. I think it's a combination of things.

[00:05:59] I think that Pete has a lot of his own lab and technical machines and inputs and whatnot. And then once there was a proof of concept developed, then I believe that the initial engineers were hired to come and figure out how to commercialize it. Because to make, you know, a small plate sample or to make a meter or two, one thing is to make thousands and thousands of meters that are consistent of high quality is a whole other volume.

[00:06:27] Yeah, manufacturing is a lot harder. Mass manufacturing. I've been in that business for a long time. You know, I've worked as a product designer for over a decade in, you know, dealing with materials and stuff. And making one bag or, you know, one thing is it's great, but it's relatively easy. Replicating it consistently is another thing. So where is Richard from? He's from Victoria. He, again, I don't have Richard's bio in front of me. No, that's fine.

[00:06:55] He was an avid sailor way back in the day. And I think he did like youth national team. I think he went to kind of the Olympics for windsurfing, perhaps. And that's how Richard and Ross got together because Ross was an avid windsurfer on the island. And we're talking like the 80s. And Ross was also like a windsurfer designer. And so they got together and then they started Ocean Rodeo, I believe, at the end of the 90s, maybe 2000.

[00:07:23] And so they had a lot of innovation in Ocean Rodeo through the years. A lot of unique, you know, bridal designs and bars and whatnot. I think that's something that maybe not a lot of people know. And you were saying like the factory is based in Victoria as well? Yeah. All the materials is manufactured in Victoria. It's a patented, you know, proprietary process.

[00:07:50] And because the nature of the input materials are more expensive, we're able to manufacture efficiently in Victoria and still be competitive. Oh, interesting. So the idea was born out of Ocean Rodeo. But do you know why specifically? Like why I was born for that and how it grew within that wind sports industry?

[00:08:19] I think it was pretty obvious when those guys made the first few kites. When you have a fabric that's half the weight and twice as stiff, the performance benefits in a flying wing were pretty obvious. And so, again, I wasn't there, but I think pretty quickly Alula was formed and Ocean Rodeo launched it in 2019 to the market. Yeah, that would have been a pretty cool kind of innovation.

[00:08:49] And then also thinking about it from the people who are just trying to drive and have fun in the water. It's a cool origin story that it originates from there. What other kind of industries is Alula in? Well, now we're working in performance outdoor athletics, aerospace, defense. There's all sorts of, you know, applications were light and strong.

[00:09:16] And we've since developed many other families of fabrics beyond the gold. The gold, in fact, is pretty much unique to wind sports. It was engineered for its stiffness on the bias. So that's not just the 090 up and down left, right. That's on all angles. The gold film provides additional stiffness, which is great in that application. But you wouldn't want to make a backpack out of gold.

[00:09:45] We've had many people ask for it because it's interesting. Like the story of gold is that it's become so recognizable and ubiquitous with performance that, you know, if we have a designer from Europe, let's say, who's also a, you know, a kiter. And he's like, oh, no, no, I really want the gold on a big backpack. And we just say, listen, trust me, you don't. This is not a good application for it. But we have these fabrics over here, which are much more applicable to a bag. So let's talk about those ones. It would be cool, though, to have like, it would be cool to have.

[00:10:16] It's it's really interesting how like synonymous that gold has come with our brand. It actually informed some of the brand guidelines out of the gate. And it's it's been very helpful because it's so visible on the beach or way out on the water. You could see someone half a mile out and you know that they're on an a little tighter wing.

[00:10:41] Well, yeah, because you're able to with those performance attributes, for example, because carbon can be masked in so many different things. Right. Because I've seen a couple of videos where they were talking about it's the carbon mountain bike of water sports. But if you paint carbon in a certain way, you can't even tell that it's carbon. So it's not you might know, like looking at it, for example, like you might be able to tell it's lighter, whatever, this and that.

[00:11:06] But it's not as easy to see to the untrained eye that yellow is yellow is yellow with different brands and say, oh, this must be like the same material. Right. From the beach, because if you have no idea what you're looking at. I can like speaking of carbon, just for example, you know, and especially in the earlier days of carbon. Yeah. People wanted to show off the carbon of the bike frame builder is using carbon fiber.

[00:11:33] They want people to see that it's carbon fiber and the buyer wants other people to see that it's carbon fiber. Nowadays, it's much more ubiquitous and you can just pick up the bike and you just know. I mean, the other for me, at least you can look at a frame and you can tell that it's not well that it's been carefully crafted out of carbon fiber. So. Alula, what we can say is Alula has got a very unique look to it, and primarily currently that's because of the color.

[00:11:58] But as Alula continues to evolve into different fabric families, that unique look will pervade. Right. And that does turn into an amazing marketing feature. And was there initial reticence maybe from some companies to work with that? Just like I'm curious. I want to go down that little rabbit hole of who is the one that designed this pitch because I have to do some selling as well.

[00:12:27] And but before I do that, I want to kind of just look at a bit more of. So Alula Gold is one material that you guys are offering and that you're making. Is there anything else, let's say, within the wind sports genre that with other materials that you have? Because this could include tents, backpacks, kind of clothing, any of that kind of world of everybody who spends time outside, especially goes to knit net and gets rained on heavy. Is there anything else that you guys are working on or have already developed?

[00:12:58] There's a lot. So I'll try not to get too far into the weeds on this one. But we have a number of fabric families. Gold is our very first one. We have other ones called Aris and Graflite and Durlite. And each of those fabric families were engineered with specific needs or performance characteristics. Aris is ultralight, as light and strong as you can go. So you'll start to see that in some canopy fabrics, you know, spinnaker material, things like that.

[00:13:29] Graflite. Graflite was, you know, originally engineered for things like packs, durability, weldability, waterproofness. And then Durlite just unsurpassed abrasion resistance, durability, tear resistance.

[00:13:46] Actually in many, if not most of the gold kites and wings on the market, there are some of those materials, particularly the Durlite or some combination of Durlite and gold that are in the seams to reinforce the seams. Oh, interesting. How does it feel to be part of that wind sports? Like you have an extensive background in this from coming from other industries.

[00:14:12] But how does it feel for the people that are working in it with the original and like the original founders in wind sports? And how's that feel to be part of that kind of whole family and to see your fabric like on water absolutely everywhere? It's pretty cool. I mean, I'm wearing an Alula hat right now. And I'm in my spare time. I'm a kiter and I do some sailing as well. And like I can walk down a dock at a yacht club. It's one of like, oh yeah, Alula. Like, what do you know about Alula? I'm like, oh, I work there. And they're just like shocked.

[00:14:42] Yes. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to be a part of something that's, you know, in essence, like has revolutionized that industry. It's created a whole new tier of product, of high performance product. And Alula will continue to do that. We're definitely not a one trick pony. We've got lots more coming. But it's pretty exciting.

[00:15:07] And it's really, it's fun and interesting to work with the different brands and their design and engineering teams as well. Because we work with some of the best teams in the world. And it's great to see how they all work and what's important to them and helping them to realize their vision with the products that they want to design.

[00:15:29] Can we talk about some of your aerospace or maybe different, like you guys talk squirrel suits or avalanche bags or like paragliders or para wings is what everybody's hopping on right now. I gather. Yeah. Have those conversations kind of happened behind the scenes? Yeah, there's work going on at all those fronts.

[00:15:50] I think in aerospace, the one that's, you know, has been publicized is some gold-like material that's being used in space habitat. So basically like an inflatable habitat that goes in space. And so the Alula fabric's being used in combination with a number of other different layers. But Alula is in space, which is pretty exciting.

[00:16:17] And then when you think of light and strong, particularly light, anything that goes in the air is a good candidate for Alula. Whether it's a commercial airplane or, you know, hang gliders, all sorts of things like that. Para gliders, all excellent candidates. And there is, you know, work being done on those fronts.

[00:16:41] On the performance outdoor side, people may have seen already that we have launched our pack fabrics and we have a number of brands in market already. And we have a lot more coming to market, which is really exciting. And so you'll continue to see that evolve. And an exciting one for us too is tent fabrics, ultralight tent fabrics.

[00:17:06] And you may see the first ultralight tent maybe later this year. So there's quite a bit happening outside of Winsport. But it's nice because it really complements what's going on in Winsport. And I have to say as well, having worked on, you know, both sides of this, I think Winsport still takes the prize for being the most technically demanding of our fabrics.

[00:17:34] Inflated flying objects in sandy, windy, sunny conditions top the charts of the most difficult fabrics to engineer for. And you're going to get feedback almost instantly from us because we're always wanting the best performance all the time. It is a committed community. Yes. I find that absolutely hilarious of all things in the world, right? Like we love our community and we are part of it.

[00:18:03] But man, we are demanding with our equipment. Now, because I obviously have, I have to sell sometimes. And I was curious genuinely what the original sales pitch was. And if you have an idea of how that story kind of went down. Sure. I know we have Duotone coming up on our third episode of this series. And we're going to talk to them a little bit about their R&D process and their thoughts and thinking behind that conversation.

[00:18:32] But I was just kind of curious if you know who was the original sales guy and how that went. Well, I mean, the original, the OG sales guy is really Richard. And he's just such a natural at that. He's really, you know, got a vision and just goes for it. Nothing will stop him.

[00:18:52] And, you know, I remember having conversations a few years ago with him and a couple of the, you know, the original guys that Alula might not have happened if it wasn't for an internal project at Ocean Rodeo. And a combination of, you know, Richard's determination, Pete's technical know-how, and then Ross's ability to build. Because these new composites require different seeming and they react differently.

[00:19:20] And it's not, you can't just, you know, swap it out for Dacron and using the exact same seeming and the same designs and say, oh, you know, here you go. It took a lot of iteration, a lot of field testing. And I think that's something unique to how Alula came about was that, you know, Ocean Rodeo and Alula are based in Victoria and Southern Vancouver Island where it's quite windy. And so Ross would make a new design using the fabric.

[00:19:48] It would get made in the factory overseas. It would come back. Like that afternoon, those guys would be on the water testing it right away. And they'd be like, oh, this works. This is no good. Let's change this. Ross would make adjustments to the design back over to the factory and overseas. So Ocean Rodeo was determined and launched it and showed, you know, really showed the industry what was possible.

[00:20:12] And I think once the first generation of kites hit the market through Ocean Rodeo, who's, you know, a relatively small player in the industry overall. Yeah. That's when it raised some eyebrows and Duotone, who already had a relationship with Ocean Rodeo. I know that Till and Richard were working together on some other things. And that's when Duotone started to work with the material and assess.

[00:20:41] People have seen this fabric for quite a few years. And I know there's some companies that work with, let's say, version one, version two, version three. And there's other companies that just release on cyclical calendars. So there'll be like 24, 25 or 23 and 25. Now, obviously, there's always been questions because the look and feel of Alula is similar. So but there's a lot of stuff, I'm assuming, going on in the background.

[00:21:11] Do you guys work like an Apple where you sell a product and then have another product and have another product and like go through that sequential and let that user test? Or is it more so you fix things as you go or improve things as you go as you find a new discovery? I mean, the origins of Alula is much more rebellious and entrepreneurial. I don't know if there was a business plan written, at least at the start.

[00:21:39] And I think that's really a little why it was successful, because it was like, hey, let's go, let's go, let's do this, you know. And, you know, gold was launched. And I would say that when you manufacture something in volume, you start to learn a lot more about how it behaves and, you know, best practices and how to dial it in. You're also starting to receive a lot more feedback from the field.

[00:22:07] It's like, oh, this kite has been used for 50 days in the sun in Egypt. And let's have a look at this. How are the seams? You know, so there was adjustments and tweaks. And again, I can't speak to this because I wasn't there, but. Just an idea. There were likely adjustments and tweaks made in manufacturing, you know, and maybe some of the seeming guidelines as Ross worked through and saw what was working, what wasn't. Hey, can we lighten this one up?

[00:22:36] So, you know, iterative updates and improvements to the fabric, to the construction. Now, the company went public about a year and a half ago. That's true. I was actually talking. We can get to that in a bit. Yeah. Because I was at Richard was one of our earliest guests when like we were recording the podcast from our cars in the middle of a field. And here we are, man, we're talking so. But he did mention that the company had just gone public not that long ago.

[00:23:05] Obviously, congratulations. Like that was a huge amount of effort to to bring. Like, I think a lot of people who and myself included don't have an idea of how much work and effort it takes from having an idea and a conception and something like ideas are born anywhere. He had a woke up. Oh, that would be amazing to do this. But then to go through that process of making it real and then having your company go public, that's a very big feat. Like not all ideas end up in there.

[00:23:34] And especially with you wearing a hat. The applications in all sorts of other, you know, industries and really like, you know, performance outdoor for sure. But when you start to look at things like defense and airships and aerospace, people start to think, oh, I see. I see what's going on here. And it's proprietary system. And, you know, something we haven't talked about yet.

[00:24:03] We can get into maybe a bit later is, you know, we're we're using primarily polyethylene films and fusing it to ultra high molecular weight polyethylene weaves, which makes it a monopolymer, which makes it recyclable. And with where we're going in the world, that's going to be a key benefit. And there's other things, too, about construction and whatnot. But we can maybe we'll talk about that. Do you know Steve Meyer from ICE?

[00:24:31] He was the original inventor of the skinny mast. So no limits. OK, so I'm a windsurfing windsurfing junkie. And we just like to go straight and blast is what people say. But when I when I chatted with Steve about ICE and his innovate, his company there based at Basin Hood River.

[00:24:52] We once again didn't know that they had their wind sports section, which is a relatively small part of the company, but they were in defense and all these different areas. And I think that lends to us feeling a little bit safer that it's like, oh, we're doing this because of our passion, because we love it. And this is a small piece of art. But same thing with Lula, right? You guys are in so many different industries. There's big contracts out there, obviously, or else the thing wouldn't be going public.

[00:25:17] I just it's kind of a cool little add on piece that his company was very similar from that. And once he started developing those skinny masks, there was no going back. You know, it's definitely a unique story. And, you know, like I joined Lula to help expand our business beyond wind sports. And but I think there's there's just so much proof that this is an amazing material and has so much runway ahead of it.

[00:25:46] You know, we're just getting started. And I think especially the more savvy brands or the more savvy designers and engineers, they could see right away, you know, we'd have a conversation. We'd send them some samples and they'd be like, well, this is next generation. They knew how that even though we were small, you know, and we're growing quickly. They could see that this was something unique and different.

[00:26:09] And it's interesting in a lot of industries, too, they'd be like, finally, something new, because it much the same as, you know, wind sports, maybe in the late teens. You know, you go to these trade shows and the fabrics are pretty similar. You know, they're iterating on their current processes. Hey, we got a new weave. We got a new coating. You know, check this out.

[00:26:31] But this was like a whole jump in another direction that provided these designers and engineers with the tools that they needed to take their designs to another level. Well, same thing Steve said he faced with that skinny mast. You can't once you ride a skinny mast, you can't go back to a standard. That's just it is what it is. Have I had a nickel for everyone who said that? Yeah, especially on Vancouver Island.

[00:27:01] Don't we love windsurfing out there? What does the future of Alula look like? I know you guys said that you're working on a bunch of different fronts. You're in a whole bunch of different industries. There's stuff we can't talk about. But is there anything cool that you can let us know of that you see coming down the pipe? Yeah, I mean, as I said, you know, the majority of our new developments is focused on all polyethylene fabrics.

[00:27:25] So those other fabric families that I listed off earlier, Aris, Graflite, Durlite, those are all polyethylene. And so that comes with a number of benefits. Obviously, the performance is first and foremost. They're lighter, stronger, stiffer. We've engineered them. You know, whatever that use case is, then we can engineer for that. So there's the infield performance. Then there's the construction capabilities.

[00:27:50] So when you have a monopolymer, at least with this polyethylene fabrics, is you can do no sew construction. So you can weld. There is early work going into 3D thermoforming. It just opens up areas of construction beyond cut and sew that are very, very interesting to brands and engineers and designers. And then the third part is sustainability.

[00:28:16] You know, we get asked a lot about, oh, well, you know, how much energy does the factory use or what are your input materials made with recycled inputs? And while we are making strides in those fronts, for us, the big win is full circularity. And that's not going to happen overnight because, like, if you have a backpack or a wing and it's passed its best before, it's just done. It's like, well, what do you do with it now?

[00:28:41] And so that's a bigger conversation coming down in the future and working with various associations and, you know, some of the biggest brands in the world because they're very interested in this. They see that as well. It's just being this is going to be a non-negotiable at some point. So how do we deliver fabrics and systems to build where it makes it really easy to, you know, break this back down just to polyethylene? And what are the systems look like, whether that's the offcuts coming from the factories or the products themselves?

[00:29:11] And of course, the best thing is to have products that don't really ever fall apart. So engineering the fabrics and the construction of those products to be as durable and repairable as possible. Because I know our next episode is going to be with Tyler. So we're going to deep dive kind of down that technical rabbit hole. Oh, he'll take you there. That is definitely something that people are wanting to know. How easy is this stuff to repair? How long does it last? What's the abrasion resistance, sun resistance stretch?

[00:29:42] Will my because we are in wind sports? Will my kite or wing last longer? All those kind of basic questions of use come out. So I'm looking forward to talking with him about it. But there's anything high level you want to touch on. We could today. Yeah, I mean, the gold fabric is not all polyethylene. So it has a mix of polyethylene and another material. And it is absolutely repairable.

[00:30:09] It's, you know, if you get a tear or something breaks, you can take it to your local repair shop. We have dozens now on our website. So if you go to olivola.com, you can see where there's places to repair. And those guys all have the proper level of fabrics in our construction guides as to how to repair those. So absolutely repairable. Same thing.

[00:30:32] So some people listening will start to see the first Ares fabrics in the wing foiling market. So there's a couple of materials that are just starting to come out. Same thing. So you're going to be able to repair those repair shops and are absolutely able to repair any of those materials. What's cool about those ones is because they're all polyethylene, is that you can weld the repairs. And this is coming.

[00:30:59] But instead of cutting and sewing, you basically like iron on a patch onto it. And that patch will be stronger than anything else on that wing afterwards because it's just fused together. So coming. And but definitely doable in terms of durability. The one of the unique characteristics of ultramolecular weight is it's highly UV resistant, very low water absorption.

[00:31:29] It's it can be flexed tens of thousands of times, like folded back and forth and it will not break. The UH is an incredible material. And so we know through our tests and our weather testing and field testing that, you know, as the gold fabric weathers and ages, you know, aesthetically, it can start to look like it's been used for a while. But when we put it on a tensile tester or tear tester, it's, you know, just slightly below when the data was made.

[00:31:59] So it's, in fact, still incredibly strong. And we benchmark that against Dacron, which just ages differently. You know, Dacron, as soon as you start using it, as soon as you inflate it, put it under stress, you know, UV, whatnot, it starts to degrade in its strength. And so I'm not going to do a direct comparison here and say, oh, it's crap or anything, but we're very confident that while both age, they just age differently.

[00:32:25] And Alula remains very high performance. People will be thinking cold, hot, obviously all that stuff, because Vancouver Island does get cold for winter stuff or winter kiting or winter, all those applications as well. But for storage, is there any concerns about going out at minus 20 and then just crumpling up your wing, for example, because you were mentioning that it does hold its properties very, very well in that regard? No.

[00:32:55] I mean, UH is still very high performance in cold conditions where, you know, there's work being done. Because some of our customers are operating, you know, airships in the stratosphere and it's minus a million. And one of the properties of UH is that it performs well in cold. So, I mean, I don't know where you're winging or kiting, but that's got to be. Can you tell us what's on the starships and whatnot? Or is that just behind the scenes? Um, I mean, you can.

[00:33:26] Yes, it's, it's, you know, we have, uh, we're combining various, you know, weaves and with films to get different technical properties. So, you know, what an airship might need or a spaceship or, you know, a space habitat is likely different than what an inflated airframe needs. But, you know, it's just a scale thing.

[00:33:50] It's like, okay, well, this thing needs to stay inflated for, you know, six years and under these conditions, what do you got? And it's like, okay, well, we need to beef up this and change this film and, you know, do a couple of different things to it. And, and it fits that technical spec. So it's, you know, on some levels, just a different sandwich. And my next question, because I've thought about this before and I just don't, I'm assuming it's going to be the future. But, you know, mountain bike tires, how they went tubeless. Hmm.

[00:34:19] Yeah, I have some of those. Yeah. Are we going to go kite in wing tubeless? Do you think eventually? We'll talk Tyler tomorrow because I was just curious. Yeah, you can ask him. Yeah. It's, I mean, let's call it the Holy Grail. But through just through doing a welded airframe would have massive advantages over a cut and so on in, you know, flying characteristics, weight, stiffness, reduction of seams. There's a lot that could happen there. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:49] Because I know there's a lot of companies that have or are coming out with, with the, like windsurf sales that are welded like that and that they're trying to get rid of that. So that can be interesting applications into the future. Is there anything else you wanted to touch on today to kind of tee up the ball for Tyler for our next one? I think this has been pretty, pretty wide ranging. I think we've covered, covered all the applications and I hope it's shed some light or, you know, onto the background of Alula.

[00:35:19] I know it's, sometimes it's been a bit of mysterious as to what Alula is and where it's come from. And, you know, so hopefully this is provided a little more background. And yeah, I think Tyler being our chief scientific officer can really dig into some of the technical aspects that people might be interested in. Yeah, we're looking forward to that because there's so many applications, obviously, for us wind people in our world.

[00:35:41] But even just looking at the other industries that Alula is in, it's kind of fascinating to see how one idea goes to another and then how those fabrics work together. And I think it gives people peace of mind as well. Because if you're buying something and you know that they're in aerospace, you know that this is not the only thing they do. And it's going to be around for a while because that testing and those contracts are not easy to obtain.

[00:36:05] You know, as Alula's grown up and, you know, increased our team and our applications, gone public, our rigor on all fronts is definitely increased dramatically. But we want to keep the, you know, sort of rebellious entrepreneurial spirit as well. Like our competitors are typically very large and been in this business for decades. And they, you know, they make great products.

[00:36:33] And I'm sure they're looking at us and looking at how to how to come up with an Alula killer. But we pride ourselves on our ability to move quickly and to be innovative and try new things. So we're going to continue doing that even as we grow. So it's good to hear. Now, next time I'm in Vic, we're going to have to have some with Phoebe, obviously, have some chowder at Christie's Pub. Have a beer there. But thanks a lot for joining us today. And thanks for kicking this off.

[00:37:02] I'm looking forward to recording with Tyler next, our second episode of this series. And just deep dive down that rabbit hole, answer some a lot of questions. Thanks, Dave. Enjoy Vancouver. Any good snow? It's been cold and clear for a couple of weeks. But we got a new system coming in. So hopefully some snow coming this weekend. Sick. All right. I hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining. Thanks, Luke. All right. Absolutely. Thanks, everybody.