Episode #87 - The ALUULA & Duotone story with, Dave Westwood, Paula Novotna and Klass Voegt

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. This week we have our third and final episode of our ALUULA mini-series. On this one we talk with Dave Westwood and Tyler Cuthbert once again, but add Paula Novotna and Klass from Duotone to the mix. We discuss the ALUULA and Duotone story, how it all began, the early R&D and the R&D that currently goes on behind the scenes.

[00:00:24] We discuss the writer's perspective from Paula and much more, so we really do hope that you enjoy this episode. If you haven't listened to the other episodes in the series, make sure you do. I don't know, grab a coffee, grab a donut and enjoy some good episodes. Now, I want to take this opportunity to thank our team for making this show a reality. We have Frank that helps out with media and consulting, we have Matthias on guest relations and we have Stefan on audio mastering.

[00:00:53] A big thank you guys as a lot of work goes into each and every episode. Next, I'd like to say thank you to our partners and sponsors. So visit foillifepodcast.com forward slash sponsors to see who supports us behind the scenes. Thank you once again to North Foils for your continued support of our show. Lastly, make sure to check out our upcoming trips on our website.

[00:01:17] Visit foillifepodcast.com forward slash trips and book your seat for our upcoming Bonaire wing foil adventure in May. Now, I hope you enjoy this show. Welcome to the Foil Life Podcast, where we talk about foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy these great sports. All right, everybody.

[00:01:45] Thank you for joining us on our third episode of the Alula miniseries. Today, we're really fortunate to have Dave, Paola and Kloss joining us. It's going to be a pretty fun episode as we're going to kind of geek out a little bit of the behind the scenes story of how Duotone and Alula got started together. And it's really nice that we're going to be able to pull in some different stories. We'll be able to pull in the athlete perspective from Paola as well. We got Dave from Alula and then we got the Duotone man right here as well.

[00:02:15] So that's going to be pretty fun. Thanks for joining us today and looking forward to it. Thanks for having us. This is great. So how did this love story start? Why don't I handle that one? So I actually joined Alula in 2021. So Alula had been a company for about three years at that point. So some of my history here is from others at the company, but I'll do my best to provide that background.

[00:02:44] So Alula launched into the wind sports market in 2019 with a Canadian brand called Ocean Rodeo. That's actually where Alula was spawned out of was the Ocean Rodeo guys. And pretty soon thereafter, Duotone took notice and started testing early versions of the material as they saw the potential of it. As well, the CEO of Ocean Rodeo and of Alula, Richard Myerscoe, had a relationship with Till over at Duotone.

[00:03:13] As I gather, they shared some or exchanged IP around some back trim lines and kites. So there was a working relationship there already. It sounds like Duotone got more serious about it when a few Ocean Rodeo riders, Giel and Kiting and Matheson Winging, were having a lot of success in showing that the Duotone gold, sorry, the Alula gold fabric was a real game changer.

[00:03:41] And Duotone had already been testing for a year or two, so was well aware of the performance benefits. And that's when Duotone decided to pull the trigger and to launch their first kite. And my understanding is that Duotone first launched around 2021, maybe early 2022, and was the first non-Ocean Rodeo brand.

[00:04:05] So I think that also speaks to Duotone's technical strength and thoroughness, that they didn't walk into this lightly. They tested the material inside out to make sure that this was going to actually be superior and hold up to Duotone's high standards. That's one good point, Klaus. Do you know how long of testing was done in the background before, let's say, an adoption plan was made? I think that's probably similar to what Dave said.

[00:04:34] There has been a huge investment initially by the kite department of Duotone in testing machines in-house. We have this big test lab facility in the bottom of this building where the departments from kiteboarding and wingfoiling invested seven-figure into different testing machines. So we don't only build prototypes, test on the water. That's normally the second step.

[00:05:01] We normally evaluate lots of different materials with our own protocols in the different testing machines that we have on strength, on tear strength, stretch, flatter tests, all sorts of tests you can imagine, UV box. So everything is there before we even start going in the fields. And this is also why Duotone kiteboarding then started the technology level D-Lab as Duotone Laboratory.

[00:05:30] And that material was the material that has, at that time, had all what we were looking for to get a real benefit into the product, something that you actually feel. And this is that wow effect when we first introduced the kiteboarding department with the first kites. But then I'm from the wing side of things.

[00:05:56] That was actually better for Dave to come with a story of how we got together because I wasn't involved from the kite side. But when I got the first Duotone unit D-Lab in my hands as the first wing that I then actually tested on the water, it's that wow effect. That you have something that substantially, that just impresses when you first ride. The initial first pump is just impressing.

[00:06:23] And that's what this D-Lab label for Duotone stands for, something that stands out and doesn't really matter the costs, which obviously there is a cost on high-priced materials and the production techniques that go with it. But it's that effect that makes you want to ride these type of products.

[00:06:44] And that's why we created these different technology levels next to the original products that are more around the base materials that a lot of competition uses, which is great value for money, great working products and makes the highest numbers for us.

[00:07:00] But these levels above that with D-Lab being the top of the pyramid and then we have the SLS, which is in between using also from the wing side, we're using some Alula segments there as well. I can say as well, there's a lot of feedback that we get from Duotone. And when Ocean Rodeo first launched, special seams were developed to work with the fabric.

[00:07:27] And when Duotone started working with the material, there was a lot of questions and research and what about this? What about that? And so it was nice to have a brand partner like Duotone to help to further the technology and to push it to see what else is possible. And that continues today with Duotone. We have a very close relationship and do a lot of work together on development.

[00:07:49] Yeah, we have our own sewing machines also in that lab and continuously testing new seams. All the seams that we are using for the D-Lab products are different to the ones that we are using and kind of standard duct run wings. And that's also one of the reasons next to the higher cost price of the material itself. It's one of the reasons why we're ending up with substantially higher retail prices as well.

[00:08:20] But there is the type of customer who's willing to pay that money to feel that special wow effect for sure. There's quite a few. Like I'm in La Ventana, Mexico right now and you're walking by and you see yellow everywhere. Not just yellow in the kites, but yellow in the wings. And I was looking things up recently and they're almost saying like it's from an aluminum mountain bike to a carbon mountain bike. It's that substantial of a difference.

[00:08:47] But it's kind of a unique relationship in essence that you guys are R&Ding and then working together to improve. That's also kind of unique as well, correct? Duotone's scale and scope and the amount of riders and customers it has and retailers really helps too. It brings a lot of data back. As you can imagine, if you do anything for the first time, you learn a lot.

[00:09:11] And the more product that's in field and the more riders use it and the feedback we get, it really helps us to tweak and improve the materials. So looking at why you guys initially started using the fabric, it was for performance reasons. Where there, obviously we've kind of touched on early insights as well as it's been a working relationship to kind of improve or to look at what you guys liked and what you didn't like and kind of work that way.

[00:09:38] Let's touch on a little bit of those performance kind of benefits that you were saying. Is there anything that stands out? Maybe, Paola, this could be something where we get some insights for you as well. Just to see what were those initial kind of wow factor moments that we had just kind of briefly touched on. But let's go a bit deeper into that. Definitely. I can start with when I first touched my D-Lab kite because there was the first equipment that I received.

[00:10:04] And as Klaas was saying, there was definitely this wow effect. And it wasn't much later after than when I received my first wing because I was already winging that time. The biggest advantage with the Alula material is the wide range that the Alula has and the D-Lab products have.

[00:10:31] And also the stiffness and how rigid this material is compared to the other products that we have. It just feels like when you're riding this Alula material on our D-Lab equipment. And it just feels, it's very forgiving as well.

[00:10:57] And when we tie the wing in gusty spots, you don't really feel the gust as much as with the other materials that we have in different wings. And I personally love the D-Lab material. And I like to travel. I can also travel with less wings. For example, I take a 3-5 and a 5 and I'm fine.

[00:11:28] The wide range of these wings are, is very, is huge. Klaas, can you talk into that a little bit more? How are you guys getting away with, this is not the first time I've heard it, Paolo. Like I was listening to other videos and they were talking about as well, reducing their kite range so they can get a couple of kites instead of four. Now we're hearing this as well for wings. Like why, why is this? So the, the wings itself, they're very, they're very direct.

[00:11:58] It's a bit like you say, if you have an alloy mountain bike and then go to carbon, it's what I can speak especially about is in terms of windsurfing terms. I'm coming, I have a longer windsurfing background. And it's like, if you have a glass fiber mast in your sail and then exchange it to a hundred percent carbon mast, the reflex, the feedback you get is just so much quicker, so much more direct, so, so much more responsive.

[00:12:27] And this is something that is super efficient in pumping up on foil on wings, for instance, that you have this immediate feedback when you pump on foil. So you get away with half meter less size in the low end. And at the top end, they have a really good flex behavior for the gusts. And that, I guess, is the range that Paula's talking about. In terms of rigidity. You awoke my inner windsurfer there, I think. I think I kind of understand a little bit more now.

[00:12:57] I was just trying to wrap my head around it. And just to explain it in that way, it made sense to my brain. I'm sure it would make sense to a lot of others as well. Like us riding standard diameter mass and switching to something way more high performance. It is way more of an enjoyable riding experience. So anyways, continue. But I thought that was a good analogy. Yeah, it's a difference that you feel that is hard to get, too hard to make the step back. Once you've ridden that D-Lab wing, this is like, I have trouble. I'm managing a bunch of team riders.

[00:13:26] I have trouble to keep them, steer them away from the more costly, top tier. Everybody on the team who has touched the D-Lab is like, I want to have a full range of D-Labs. Which makes it difficult for marketing reasons. But to get back to the performances, there's other benefits. Like we are able to reach with same diameter of tube diameter of the leading edge, for example, we're able to reach higher stiffness.

[00:13:55] That in return gives us the option to reduce diameter, reduce drag, increase performance, and then kind of get back to same stiffness and flex that a standard diagram would only have at a higher diameter. So we have simple performance differences that we can implement in a D-Lab wing. And so we have a gradual reduction in diameter also from going from the original wings to the SLS,

[00:14:25] to the full D-Lab wings that use the full Alula frame. The Alula frame has a very nice shape holding ability over time as well, which it doesn't wear out as much, which keeps the wings very fresh over a longer time. Anyone who is like from first generation wings using a standard D-Dakran wing with an initial more tight canopies

[00:14:52] knows that a wing starts to be tired after depending how much you use it. But after, let's say, half a year, it doesn't feel like on day one. And if you have a frame that is really rigid and stiff and doesn't wear out, the whole wing experience keeps more fresh over time. Obviously, we also implemented better canopy materials that are more targeted at the loads that we have in winging over the kite materials that we used in day one.

[00:15:20] So also that side is way fresher. And all in all, that's just many benefits that come to these type of D-Lab wings. I can speak to that freshness because it's the first time I've heard it described that way. And it's really interesting. Of course, we've got five, six years of test data now on the gold fabric.

[00:15:45] And when we look at material that's been used for a few years or we have weathering machines in our laboratory, the decrease in absolute strength in the material is low percentage points, five, ten percent. And that's after extreme weathering. And when we compare that to a Dacron, the funny thing about Dacrons is they always actually look pretty good. They get a little weathered.

[00:16:12] But when you put it on the tensiles tester, it drops off precipitously. Like we're talking, you know, 70, 80 percent. And I think that's that squishiness that the riders would feel is that it does start to get soft and not bounce back the way that it did when it was brand new. Talking weathering, do you guys have an approximate time frame?

[00:16:35] Like I know with the early versions of wings for the last couple of years, like a lot of riders can tell you how quickly it will take for a wing or even like I can more speak to wings than kites. But how long that'll take to get soft? I know there's some companies that are coming up with kind of reflex type materials that'll allow their wingtips to not start caving in. Did you guys have any of that kind of research as well, Dave? So I wouldn't say that we have specific research from the brands themselves or from Dubutone. I mean, they'll know how it's performing.

[00:17:06] We know through wind sports and through other applications and non-wind sports how the ultra high molecular weight weave reacts over time. And the fact that it is incredibly durable and isn't susceptible to UV and water absorption and flexing and all those types of things, whereas nylons and polyesters are.

[00:17:29] Okay, so you can offset obviously because there is a cost component here, but there is an offset of cost with longevity and with all those other performance attributes. So like it doesn't matter. This wing might last three, four years versus one year or one and a half years or something or more than that. If I was marketing it as the brand, I would say, hey, look, instead of three wings, you only need two.

[00:17:58] And yeah, but it should technically perform much longer to the standard that you're expecting than a traditional fabric would. Okay. No, thanks for that. Sorry, Klaus. You were saying? Yeah, I said it's really hard to nail that down to a certain timeframe on the month. It also obviously depends on how much the person rides. We have some team riders that manage to squeeze in five hours a day.

[00:18:25] I don't know how they do it, but we have others and partly the customer who's actually going to the store and is so impressed by his first feel of a D-Lab wing that he just goes in and buys three. Normally, that type of customer who has that spending power is the kind of guy who's not going to ride every second day, five hours a day.

[00:18:50] But he wants to ride the best equipment for his limited time or her limited time on the water. And that's why, especially for that type of customer, normally it takes exceptionally long to wear out the equipment. Our team riders, they normally put the most on these D-Lab wings that we hand out. That's why also a lot of the durability testing we do over time.

[00:19:14] Once a material went through the whole process in our lab and then we built 20 wings and sent them to riders. We use our heavy users a lot for that and protocol their time on the water and see which temperatures they ride in, salt content, whatever. Everything we write down and then we have half of the wings.

[00:19:42] We have a huge network of centers and schools and then we give wings to schools where people without all the knowledge of a team rider and knows how to actually handle the material very nicely. Normally, it gets dragged up the beach by somebody who doesn't have the knowledge how to do it. And then we get also a lot of good feedback on our equipment. We don't do that just with D-Lab wings, obviously. That's something we do with every product we build normally and we need to put some durability testing on that.

[00:20:12] We make a mix of team riders or heavy users and schools and centers because we get a big variety of different styles of usage. So talking wing design with this fabric, I know there's a lot of companies, let's say, that are coming out with a Dacron mix with something else.

[00:20:33] But working with Alula, for those who, let's say, want to buy it for the first time or just looking into it, you're able to get those same flex characteristics or, let's say, offloading of the wing when you're overpowered conditions or allowing that wing to pump and breathe so you can get up on foil kind of faster. Are you doubling, like putting more layers of Alula?

[00:20:56] Are there different kinds of fabric that you guys work with within that Alula world that mesh together to kind of create that ultimate kind of breathing leading edge? It's not just – obviously, it's not just stiff because stiff is not always what you're looking to get, right? Yes, normally we – I mean, our wing designer, Ken, he plays a lot with – Ken Winant, he plays a lot with different diameters in the different sections of the wings.

[00:21:26] Sometimes or often you want to have it fairly stiff in the center, but you want to have a certain flex towards the tips to breathe through these gusty conditions.

[00:21:35] And this is also why, for example, on our SLS wings, we have this Alula center part stiffening out the midsection, which – actually, if you look at our wing range of original wings, we also have a different center segment, which is a fairly heavier Dacron to stiffen out the center.

[00:21:58] In case of the SLS wing, we're able to replace that super heavy Dacron against a lighter material. Alula gold is substantially lighter than our standard Dacron we're using in the normal wings. So we use that in the center stiffening that. And then we use our Pentatex that we use in all the SLS kites, also in the SLS wings, which is also slightly stiffer than the standard Dacron, slightly lighter.

[00:22:25] And that together has quite a nice flex, but then can fine-tune the diameters of these sections and blends that into the different materials and then builds several different prototypes per size to fine-tune to the last percent of performance. And that also means that we cannot just adopt the designs from the original wings to the SLS and to the DLAB every single wing.

[00:22:54] And in terms of our unit range, that's, for example, 27 different patterns that he has to do for the next rounds of units when we come with original SLS and DLAB, which is tons of work for him. But every different material that we use needs that extra work because you cannot just apply it one-to-one to the next wing. It's fascinating how much R&D and work goes into producing these things for all of us to enjoy.

[00:23:22] But no, thanks for sharing that a little bit more. Paola, because you've had the opportunity to ride everything under the sun at DUTON with the Alula. Do you think there's a target market for Alula? Do you think somebody getting into the sport or somebody who just wants to have a higher performing wing, do you know if there's an ideal market for this product?

[00:23:44] Do you think that the DLAB and the DLAB wings are must in racing conditions? When I was racing a lot, it was not comparable to race with another wing than a DLAB wing. It's just so fast.

[00:24:07] And compared to the other wings in the fleet, the difference on how fast downwind I could go, it was crazy compared to all the other wings in the market. So I didn't want to touch any other wing when I was racing. And yeah, it's very fast. Looking at freestyle and wave, are we seeing the similar kind of feedback from those disciplines as well?

[00:24:37] What I like a lot about the DLAB material or Alula material is that it's so stiff. And I don't need to have a big wing, even when the wind is super light, because I managed to pump it and get up. And once I'm up, I don't need a big size wing.

[00:24:56] So I'm mostly wing with very small wings because they're so much more friendly on the waves because they don't get much in the wave. If I'm winging in a four or a three, five is much better than with a five. And that's why I like to ride waves with the DLAB or Alula wings or now with the SLS version, which has the Alula in the middle, because it allows me to get up faster.

[00:25:25] I think you can say to that, Dave or Klaus, yeah? Yeah, maybe let me comment on that a little bit because you asked about the different disciplines. I think being fast is the most obvious. One of the reasons is because actually you can reduce diameter and reduce drag in design.

[00:25:46] One thing that is like if you look at waves, for example, in wing design, it's much lighter to make a wing that is very light and maneuverable in your hands when you're actually using something very light. And the efficiency that Paolo was talking about to get up, for example, with a 3.5 Uni DLAB versus a four meter or a 3.5 original, you just have that direct pumping efficiency.

[00:26:12] So there's conditions where you can actually ride half a size smaller and get on foil in the waves and then have a wing that is actually lighter, which is easier for the designer to make a very nice floating wing on the leading edge handle, even on the wave. So there is a lot of benefits. Obviously, if you go to the waves, there's a big chance that you could tumble and the foil punches your wing. So there's a pro and con.

[00:26:41] If you take a very expensive wing into the waves and you have a sharp foil, there's a risk that you destroy your wing. But just from the pure performance perspective, you will have benefits there as well. And then if you look at freestyle and you look at jumps and coming back to that windsurfing story of carbon versus glass fiber mass, it's a similar thing. You have higher takeoff speeds. You have a very direct responding wing in your hands.

[00:27:09] Initiating rotations goes a little faster normally because it's reacting so quick. So that's why even our top freestylers in the team tell me they want the DLAB to perform to the highest level, get that half meter more height, be a little quicker in their rotations. And we see that in the kites, all the top team riders in the kites, they want the DLAB to get that max airtime in the wing side of things.

[00:27:38] It's the same. If you just want to reach that highest top level, you have that edge. Yeah. Like I said before, they're incredibly popular here. I even walked by a guy the other day. He must have had a pretty bad session or something because I didn't realize that there were so many. Like I looked into it. It was eight or nine different brands, right, Dave, which we're going to talk about as well. But like I just looked at it and it's a beautiful brand new core wing, right? And he's like, yeah, yeah, it's Alula.

[00:28:07] And I just kept walking home. But it's nice to see that, let's say, a Canadian company has been able to – how does that relationship feel building over the years for you guys, Dave? Because like looking at it from our perspective as riders and passionate people, it's kind of cool to see something like this from like for those of us that are Canadians or Americans. It's kind of cool for us because the hub of wind sports is primarily more so in Europe. So contributing here is a pretty cool thing.

[00:28:37] Yeah, I mean the founding of Alula was done originally by a brand, by Ocean Rodeo, based in Victoria. And Victoria, B.C., it's based on the southern tip of Vancouver Island, which basically sticks out into the Pacific Ocean. And it's very breezy. So, you know, the guys who first developed Alula, they were looking for something new.

[00:29:04] They kind of looked around in the market and said, hey, everyone's using the same fabrics, the same Dacrons, and trying to tweak it to make it slightly better. But there must be something else that can be done to elevate the sport. And so they got together with a PhD chemist and developed the first iterations of Alula and saw immediately what the benefits would be.

[00:29:29] So all of the fabric continues to this day to be manufactured in Victoria, in our factory there. And as you can imagine, the gold fabric was our first fabric. It continues to be the lead material in wind sports. But Alula as a business, we've expanded into other industries. So we're in the performance outdoor, you know, backpacks and tents.

[00:29:55] We're in aerospace, shelters, all sorts of things. You know, we get a lot of inbound calls every day from some of the world's top brands asking what we're up to and how it could apply to their business. So circling back to wind sports, we are continuing to innovate and definitely working with Duotone on what's next. Because gold is one fabric and it's amazing.

[00:30:21] As with any carbon fiber, there's many different types of carbon fiber and how you use it. And, you know, if Alula was only making gold in 10 years from now, I would be shocked. So there's definitely more to come. And as I said, like now at Alula, we also have the benefit of working in a number of different industries. And so something that we work with in a brand, you know, an outdoor may have implications for something in wind sports that we wouldn't have considered. We're also growing as a business and scaling up.

[00:30:50] And so we have access and knowledge to materials and systems now that we wouldn't have five or six years ago. So we're definitely not standing still. Paola, going back to you, is there anything else from the rider perspective that you would see us needing to know about either the kites or the wings themselves? Yeah, I just remembered I was testing a lot.

[00:31:14] I just remembered the Alula wings and kites compared to SLS or the traditional material. When jumping high is one of my hobbies to jump high with my wing. And also with the kite, as with my wing, I go quite high. With my kite, I don't go as high. But it's definitely a huge difference to have Alula kite or wing in my hands to go high.

[00:31:42] Because you just with me, I jump one or two meter higher. I'm not sure about others, but I just really enjoy taking these wings out when I'm trying to break the records. My brother's looking for some new kites and he did comment on the D-Lab a few weeks ago. So we're going to have to probably AWSI this year or something. We'll have to give some of these some tests for him.

[00:32:07] What about, let's say, abrasion and UV and all those different things, class, that you guys have put through the testing? Just to kind of wrap up on that longevity piece that I find goes into people when they're just trying to figure something out. Obviously, you've seen those positive characteristics. But how would that testing be done? Is it just brute kind of testing to see how the abrasion is? Like, can we walk through that process as well?

[00:32:34] Normally, I mean, we have our test boxes in the basement here where we do these knitted tests, crunch the material, put it back and see how it develops over. We can simulate like 100 times of packing and unpacking the wing in a very short time. And normally, that's where material gets a lot of stress. If you roll it up, unroll it again, roll it up.

[00:33:03] And these type of laminate materials to see how they actually behave on that. So this is one aspect that we really test before we even go into the field. If we elaborate a new material that we want to use, it's something we do. The UV box is something. How does the laminate respond to a lot of UV?

[00:33:23] So we can shorten the time frame that if we normally would go in the field and get these wings a year of testing in the open field, we can just bring that down to a shorter time. Then still do the field test on top. And over time and the evolution of the Alula gold material over the years, obviously, it always looks gold and it looks the same. But maybe Dave can comment on that.

[00:33:49] But there's been refinements over the time making that material better and better in this regard. Yeah. So we obviously don't want to be shipping any material that's not 100% A grade. And we have a lab which we do extensive testing on. And so we test all the material through the flexing and the UV and water and whatnot as we develop materials.

[00:34:16] But also as we're manufacturing the materials, all the roles that come out are all tested thoroughly as well to make sure they meet the specs. And I think as well, like there's with the gold fabric, it's an interesting one, too, because we've got the gold film is on the outside, which you can see. And then we have the weave on the inside and compared to something like a Dacron where you have the weave on the outside and any sort of coatings on the inside.

[00:34:45] And so as fabrics age, they just age differently. And what an Alula composite is, is much different than a Dacron laminate. It's not even a laminate, it's a coating, I believe. And we're very confident in the long-term durability of that material, even as it ages. And now Duotone is one of your partners, right, Dave? But can you mention how many other brands within this industry? Because I know all of us on the other side of the fence will ride for a variety of different companies.

[00:35:16] So we're looking at, I think it's up to eight or nine, is it? Or are there more than that? We're probably in the 12 plus range. So Alula Gold, we have brand partners, a lot more brand partners than when we started with Duotone. And Duotone remains our lead development partner through that.

[00:35:43] And as we bring new materials to market as well, you'll start to see sort of the changes in the nature of what materials are available and who's using them. So we, of course, we want to support the wind sports industry. We love it. We think it's great. It's actually, of all the things we do, like we have literally fabric in space. And yet I would say our toughest application has got to be wind sports.

[00:36:09] Like the sun and the sand and the inflation and the twisting and, you know, the slightest changes to the performance of the fabric really affects how a kite or a wing flies. And flying objects are pretty tweaky things. So A, how we develop fabrics and what their performance characteristics are.

[00:36:34] And then B, ensuring that they're consistent because slight variables can change classes, teams, designs and have different. So it's interesting, you know, if we're working on something like a backpack, the pack fabric needs to be light, needs to be durable. You know, there's all sorts of other things. But I'll tell you what, a wing or a kite is a much tougher customer to satisfy on many respects. Yeah. I can imagine.

[00:37:03] Is there anything else we wanted to touch on, guys, today? And Gal? From our side? I think we covered it now? I think we covered most of it, yeah. It was good. It was a great chat. Okay. Yeah, okay. Thank you for, I would like to thank you for bringing Alula Gold live because it's just wow. It has this wow attack, as Clas mentioned in the beginning. And made me win a lot of competition. Oh, well, that's, I'm glad we were able to help.

[00:37:32] I mean, if you look at Alula coming to market in Winsports, it created another category, another tier of product. And, you know, to date, there's nothing still that compares to it in terms of the performance. And we understand that it's a higher price point. And that mostly has to do with the input materials. We're dealing with very expensive inputs.

[00:37:57] But we're going to continue to push the envelope of what's possible at that top tier. So riders like Alula can win competitions. Yay. Thanks, everybody, for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you.