Flight Mode Episode #1 - Parawing Mania with Carlos Saez

Hey, Carlos, thanks for joining us. Carlos Saez (00:08.523) All good. Carlos Saez (00:12.098) Hello, Luke. Thanks for inviting me. Luc Moore (00:14.915) Yeah man, it's nice to see you. We've been chatting a little bit about this new series we're launching today called... Carlos Saez (00:17.208) Thanks. Carlos Saez (00:21.956) Flight mode. Flight mode. Luc Moore (00:25.402) with Carlos. Carlos Saez (00:27.81) Yes, this is me. Fight more because this is what we all want to do, right? Just get on foil, get up and fly over the ocean. And that's the goal. Luc Moore (00:35.171) That's true. And so this is gonna be a tech series where we're gonna deep dive into topics all about you, the community. So if you're interested in us geeking out and something specific, you have questions, send them in to either the SFT, Carlos, ourselves at the podcast. We're all gonna be working together on this. We just wanna give you as much unbiased information as possible. We're probably gonna pull in some other people as well. Maybe Matt on foil, maybe Foil Rat, maybe some other guys in the community who are really diving into specific topics to just, I don't know, help out and have more fun in the water. I think we all need that. Carlos Saez (01:14.702) totally. That's my feeling too, especially with this new parts of the sport divisions like foiling is evolving so fast that is sometimes scary. It's going so fast. And we have a new discipline kind of each year developing. Now we have, of course, I think the hottest topic is foil assist and para winging. Two very different things. Foil assist, think is Luc Moore (01:26.67) Yeah. Luc Moore (01:42.68) Very. Carlos Saez (01:45.13) is great because it makes the... And parallel winging is kind of the same in another... It's like it's making it easier. So to start surf foiling is quite complex. You need to have the right equipment and the time because you need to wait for the condition to be good. Now with foil assist, you can accelerate that in a crazy manner. So if you want to go downwind foiling, not before you need the paddle and... to learn technique, how to paddle and how to use different foils or boards. And now this is easier with the foil assist, which can make a shorter gap between if your goal is to take the paddle, you can still learn in an easier manner. And then the same with the part of winging. The part of winging is going to put you out in waves, downwinding or what I think is the final goal and how the sport is going to develop because of all the information I'm receiving and What I'm seeing is that we will end up getting people because people in the end want simplicity, right? So you want to go in your car and have a really small pair of wings, a little back and not a huge board and just do laps, upwind, downwind, upwind, downwind. I'm seeing brands and let's talk for example, just F1 came up with Quest and I think it's something similar to what Osong has done. Osun has the, it's called Pocket Rocket. And what's the other one? The new one, do you remember the name? No, I don't know, it doesn't matter. Luc Moore (03:21.441) Let me check. There's 7, there's 7,500 of them. Yeah, we'll skip it. Carlos Saez (03:25.582) Yeah, yeah, yeah. But well, basically there are two models. One model is better going upwind and the other model normally is easier to stash and lighter. It maybe doesn't go upwind as good as the other model, but it's more like focus on just going out on downwind. So brands are having these two directions. One is like more speed, upwind, and the other one is simplicity and stability. I don't know if they will both come to a model that can do it all. But right now, this is all we have. I think the future is going to be in the side of wings that can really go up well. Because the other day was I was discussing actually with Daniel and foil rat that look, if I'm here in the beach and I want to because it's the easiest, like unsafest. You you go with your car, with your family or your girlfriend or your friends and you don't need Luc Moore (04:02.24) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (04:25.4) a shuttle and don't need boards. Yeah, exactly. This is the two directions. Pocket rocket is the upwind and fast model and power pack is the simpler, lighter, more damped, less upwind. So a lot of people is they don't know what to get. What should I get this or that? And it's all about, of course, personal preferences. It depends on what your final goal, what you want to do. Luc Moore (04:31.295) So we got. Carlos Saez (04:55.308) Some of the wings are better groomed, which is great for lighter winds or to start, because the biggest challenge with para-winging is the start. And with a wing, you can sail in way lighter conditions and easier. Let's say I have friends using, imagine, let's put, I like to put numbers on this so people can see the whole picture. So an experienced winger. Luc Moore (05:06.78) it is. Carlos Saez (05:24.11) of 80 kilos can use a board of 65, 70 liters and can use a 4, 4, 5 wing in 12 knots already with an 800 to 1000 foil. And if they are good pumping and they have the technique, they can make it go out. This is like the lightest for this equipment. You can go lighter, but you will need a longer board, a bigger... Luc Moore (05:45.051) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (05:52.385) wing, wing and a bigger foil. But you know, it's different for each person, weight, where he sails. But let's say this, this same person to use a five meter para wing, he will need 15 knots. Luc Moore (06:07.229) We're gonna have to keep your Spanish hands away from the table. Is that okay? Yeah, okay, awesome, thanks. Carlos Saez (06:11.79) Okay, okay, okay. Yes, So same person, 4.5 meter wing in 12 knots. If he's experienced, he can make it take off in 12 knots. And then the same guy on the same board will need 15, 16 knots for the para wing, which is like four or five more knots. That's a handicap, okay, because you will need more wind. And also the second problem the para-winds have compared to wings is that they have less wind range. So this same person with the 4.5, they can start at 12 knots and maybe they can hold it until 25, 27, something like that, like overpowered. But para-wing, same guy with this five meter para-wing, it will make it work from 15, 16, five meter, and maybe at 20. 21 is already too much. So you will need a couple of para wings at least to fit the range of a wing. So this is one of the downsides at the moment. I don't know if in the future it will improve. Actually new para wings are way better like V2s and V3s because some brands are going really fast. They're already on the V3 and some other on V2s. It doesn't mean that V2 is less good. than a V3 because maybe the V2 of a brand came out at the same time with the same knowledge because some brands take a lot of time, mean, 30 prototypes until they got the one they're happy with. Yeah, and actually I like this approach. I'm seeing a lot of brands in the market that want to jump on the wagon and they bring whatever fast. And in the end, this is like people buy it. Luc Moore (07:50.779) That's very true actually. That's very true. Carlos Saez (08:04.556) maybe it's cheaper or whatever, and then something new comes out that is better. And then the other one goes to the secondhand market. So now there is this problem of brands moving really fast. Early adopters are selling their other equipment. It's good for starting because you have cheap equipment that you can buy, but it's moving, in my opinion, too fast. I would focus more on develop like product first, a product that has all the requirements that riders need. which actually now is kind of simple. the briefing would be, I'd say some para winds have the lines too long. When lines are long, it needs like less wind because up there is a bit more wind always than closer. But then if you want to stash it, you need to do it in two steps. So people kind of don't like this. So they are trying to reach the perfect line length. This is the first thing. simplicity in the legs. see a lot of different configurations between para wings. And for example, Osun is famous for the new lines are really nice to stash. They're really soft and nice. Some other are more abrasive. So you want a para wing that is not too high aspect, not too low aspect. Like high aspect will fly closer to the wing window easier. Lower aspect will be more manageable and maneuverable, but will be more grumpy and less. Luc Moore (09:26.54) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (09:32.975) upwind less performance there. So it's all about the balance. Then what kind of textiles are you using? Are they harder, more resistant in the waves or to abrasions? Or are you having lighter one that fly with less wind and better? Then you have, of course, the bar. It's a lot of different stuff going on. And yeah, it's amazing. I I love it because the bar Luc Moore (09:35.692) Really? Carlos Saez (10:01.645) I get info from the writers and users and I know which bar they like. I know which line they like. I know which kind of canopy they like. And I think this information is also getting acquired by other brands because first you need to put the product in the market. Then you have the feedback. So with all this feedback, B4s will have maybe the right lines that we like, the right length, the right canopy. You know, it's still a lot of room for growth and... Luc Moore (10:15.892) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (10:30.061) But I want to be really specific or really honest that right now we have really good models in the market. I I wouldn't wait. I wouldn't wait. You need to get in early because if you're getting early, have more time to improve. Like, winning, right? The people that started winning in 2019 are just above the level. Yeah. So. Luc Moore (10:51.562) That's a good point actually. If you think about it in that way of getting in, even though the early wings were not the best, what we were able to do is evolve with it. And now that we can play in bigger conditions and serve good stuff, if we had started four years later, you'd be behind the eight ball. that completely makes sense. So back a little bit before you were mentioning that you're gonna need multiple pair wings to get started. Do you have an appra, like, Carlos Saez (11:19.053) No, no, no, no, to get started. You need multiple para wings. you want to imagine you want to para wing in a range of 12 knots, I think under 12 knot, for example, I like putting examples, Maybe brands can be like a bit pissed with this information or disagree. I want to point, this is just my opinion. It's an informed opinion, but it's just my opinion. And this happens also with wings, okay? And foils, same. Luc Moore (11:30.345) Forget it. Luc Moore (11:40.875) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (11:47.577) Think about wind range and let's talk about myself. I want to wing, let's say winging is more, we know more about it because para-winging is newer. So winging. If I want to wing in, for example, I'm like 85 kilos, I use a 70 liter board for 10 by 22. And I use a five meters and a foil that is a thousand 230. Luc Moore (12:14.206) All right. Carlos Saez (12:14.255) and it's 90 wingspan. No, but this is my light wind setup. So it's 1,230, 70 liters. So it's like 15 under my weight and a five meter. And I can make it work in 10 knots. Nine, 10 knots, I pump hard and I make it work. This fall is really, it's lifting. So it works. Now, imagine I want to go, I'm going in nine, 10, 10, let's say 10. Imagine I want to go in eight. Luc Moore (12:32.414) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (12:42.041) then I need to buy a six meter wing, right? But this six meter wing is gonna cost me X money and it's gonna improve one knot. You know what I mean? So it's the same for para-winging. You want the para-wing a five meter with the right board and the right foil size, you can make it work in 15 knots. If you want to go in 12 or three knots less, you need a way bigger para-wing. Having the same board and the same foil. So sometimes I think it's not worth it. Luc Moore (12:53.479) Yes. Carlos Saez (13:12.813) that money. would say I prefer to same with boards. I prefer to have the right wind and start than spending a lot of money to gain a couple of knots. You you need a bigger fault, you need a bigger, I don't know. If you have the bigger fault because you're pumping, so you have it already, then you can work with this. Also boards, if you have your downwind board that is long, it of course will take off way, way earlier. But the thing is, do you want to have three boards? three para wings and I don't know, a lot of foils because for winging myself, I use three sizes. I use like eight, I use 950 and the 1230, these three ones. So with 800, can go, it can be super windy and I can still use it. I know some people love to use six 650s and stuff, but I have a different opinion. I like, I'm a mid user, I'm a totally mid user. So with a A50 and a 3.5 wing, I can just make it. Okay, so talking about setups, it's important how you combine your wing or para wing, your board and your foil. And this is something that people I think sometimes get a bit lost. So let's be specific. Let's talk about, I think like mid. mid weight of a person is 75 to 85 is where more or most of the market sits. And if you want to learn, let's talk about power winging. It's good to have a stable big board so you can still use this board you were using to learn to wing, which are cheap right now in the second half market. Once you have some sessions and you improve on your learning, you can go lower. And what I'm learning from the market is people even professionals. And this is also important. We're talking about the board for all, not to have three boards. A board to get 80%, 90 % of the day's good performance out of it. So I would go five liters below your weight to five liters plus your weight, even like same weight and same liters. This is a good reference. Then what foil? To learn, you need a big foil because Luc Moore (15:23.056) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (15:38.863) Para-winging is difficult to pump to start. It's not easy. So you normally start with your big foil and then you work your way down to a smaller one. And then boards, we always talk about volume, but it's important length and width is so important too. I see this mistake. I want to compare it with surfing. Like what do you write? You write a six zero. Okay, six zero. But what do you say? This is 25 liters or it's 40 liters? Luc Moore (15:56.143) especially in this, right? Carlos Saez (16:08.782) Like I'm 85 and my surfboard is 5'5", which is super short, but it's 38 liters because it's like a Sammini Simons, these nuggets that are like wide, short and thick. So it's not all about length. Also, I'm reading in the forum that people like to go to narrow and long boards. so-called mid-length. A mid-length, the mid-lengths we have are coming from downwind boards. So downwind boards are like 8.5 feet foot. And then they're making them shorter to let's say 6 to 6'5, 6'6, something like that. And they're going really narrow to something like 19, 19 and a half. And a lot of people in WhatsApp and forums, they're talking about this kind of boards. Let me see here. For example, let's see a 6.2 is 90 liters and it's 20, which is more or less what people is going for now. is like people is going between 6 and 6.2 and something like 20. And yeah, the liters depends on the person, right? But this is a good size. What I'm seeing Luc Moore (17:13.292) Mm-hmm. Luc Moore (17:26.177) Yeah. So for those on audio only, we're just on ktfoiling.com because we love keysports and we're looking at the Super K2 Carbon Edition, which is their higher end version. And we were looking at the width and length on there. So you can always hop out over to ktfoiling.com to check it out. Yeah. Carlos Saez (17:43.235) Yes, but please move to the Move to the board, just to the outline. Okay. Yeah. So these skatey boards, which are great, they are two kind of holes or bottoms. One is like hole that is like this. And then it's planning the planning hole that is more flat or with gunk caves. The holes like this are really good at penetrating and moving the water apart. Luc Moore (17:48.522) the outline? There you go. Luc Moore (18:05.845) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (18:13.059) So this is a perfect hole for bigger boards. But when you go shorter, if you make the hole, when you pump, the water wraps, you know, because the design is made to split the water like that. So it kind of wraps. So what I'm seeing is for shorter versions, which is where the sport is heading, like pros, because I'm talking with the pros all the time because of the competition. Luc Moore (18:39.326) Exactly, you are, yeah. Carlos Saez (18:39.983) And I always ask about what are they using and board and stuff. They're going shorter, wider and flatter. So this board that is the norm now, maybe in 27, we will see a bit different design. So the same I see is as this is what I was telling you. It's like this board are like shorter compact version of a downwind board. And now the direction I'm is more a race. Luc Moore (18:53.82) interesting. Luc Moore (19:03.487) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (19:07.351) wing race board, like the wing race boards, if you go to wing racing and you see the boards, they have more flat tails at the end and they're stubiar. They're like more parallel rails and the bottoms are flatter. And these guys make 500 cm square, which is tiny, go up in eight knots with this board. Of course they use six meter wings for the race and something like that. But I'm always amazed because they is like no wind and they go like, and they push the board, they slap the water. So what they're doing is they are creating lift with their legs and getting the foil to engage. This is all about technique and they make it go. So you have two options of taking off. First option is using length, narrow width. Luc Moore (19:47.56) Yeah. Carlos Saez (20:05.163) and speed, so to take off. And this is what people is using doing now. And the future will be shorter, bit wider. And I will tell you more or less the sizes that I'm talking with the riders. It's not wide, but it's wide, just wider. So this skate board was 20 and a half. They're going in the mark around 22 now. 22 is just a couple inches more, which is... Luc Moore (20:06.986) Mm-hmm. Luc Moore (20:26.622) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (20:33.711) a good space to put the volume you need in, still not too wide, but it has the planing hole that you need to push. Like if it's too narrow, when you push, it kind of sinks. So you need more base to push the water. So they're going for boards between five, two, which is pretty short, five, two, two, this is the pros, Five, two to five, six, and width of 22, 22 and a half, something like that. And the volume. they are using something like, I said, like some of them use plus minus 15 minus 10, but the average group is using same. Like if you wait 80, you have an 80 liter board or you go to a 75 because actually, actually some people don't know this, but if you wait 80 and you have an 80 liter board, it sits on the surface a bit more and the chop is more, it's moving your board. So if you can go a little bit, just a little bit below, you're tackling that movement better, okay? Because the top of the wave is not hitting it. And when you stand up and you are still barely underwater, this is something I remember, I was talking last year with pro riders and friends and I'm like, look, if I want to go out and imagine you need a gust of, let's say 15 knots, if you have 30 knots, you're not gonna, take off, even if you're sitting over the water, you need the wind to pull you, right? So it doesn't matter if you're sitting below the water a bit or up, because with 15 knots, if you're going out, first thing that we're doing is going to the surface and then out. Okay, so it doesn't change. I mean, if you need 15 knots to take off with your setup, doesn't matter if you're above or below, you make it to the surface and then go using the technique. So in my opinion, same weight, to volume ratio is a great for a one quiver board. Okay. And what is good about that? Even if you're a pro in a competition, wind can drop because you think long legs, you go through different rules of wind. So you don't want to have a really small board that when you sink, it's gonna be trouble to go back. So the idea is to have a compact board, let's say five two to five six. Carlos Saez (23:00.559) 20, let's say 21 to 23, or I like 22 as a sweet spot. The same volume as your weight or a bit less, five liters. This is a safe board to be used everywhere. And also something I see as a point that is an advantage is that this same board works for winging, okay? Because if you have this board that take off really good with your para wing, it's gonna be even easier with your wing. So you can have this one. Now the question is, people are not prost. Okay, so these are prost, but I think people will learn to use these shorter boards just by putting the hours, right? So if people now are using 60 to 65 by 20, let's see, 19, 20, I think in the future, they will move something shorter like five eight to five 10, and a bit wider like 21, 22, 23. So this is for regular users. Luc Moore (23:33.061) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (24:00.973) Then of course, in this group, you cannot put everybody. Some people is really, how you say that? They learn fast, they're fast learner. And some people is a bit less technical, you know? So in this group, you always have fluctuation. It's difficult to put numbers for everybody, but I'm trying to get the people to kind of overview. And of course you need what foil, what shape, what mast, what board, what wing is too much stuff. So. What's the wind where you normally use it? What's your wind drain? What's your weight? What's your level? All that. So I think some people get a bit lost. Too much information, like which tail, I And I totally understand because I'm a user too and when you don't have access to the equipment, it's difficult. Let me talk about something else that just came to my mind. When people, let's say influencers, I see a lot of videos in YouTube saying, Luc Moore (24:52.994) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (24:59.671) might this be the best foil ever? I always ask, have you tried them all? People go like, this is the best foil and maybe, yeah, you have used five different brands, but there are many, many brands. Like some people is thinking for a brand, maybe let's talk this morning, Matt on foil was using a Tacoon and he was loving it for pumping. I myself have. Luc Moore (25:22.979) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (25:27.833) have tried this brand and I like it a lot. And it's not a expensive brand. But this brand is really good in, let's not put name. In this case it's Pumping, But let's forget about Tacoon. Each brand has a good foil in something. Like maybe this brand A is really good for winging, brand B is really good for pumping, brand C is really good for surfing. And now some of the brands are putting it all together and they're bringing new models that are amazing. Luc Moore (25:43.573) You're right. Yeah. Carlos Saez (25:56.579) I mean, I could tell you, people know like, Code has this Code X that are really good. And F1 has the skates, like one foil for all, okay? There are a lot of brands actually that have Axis has the surge. This is also a really good foil. It pumps, it turns. You can use it for everything. So if you're gonna be specifically only para winging, maybe you narrow it to these models that are good for this. or if you are surfing, these are the best model for this. But if you're like me, that I like to do all, like foiling is my passion and these are my toys. So sometimes I want to surf foil. Sometimes I like to take the assist, para winging or winging. And I need a foil that is kind of good at everything. Maybe not the best at anything, but good at everything because I have limited money, right? So. Luc Moore (26:51.743) Yeah. Carlos Saez (26:52.215) I want to have maybe a foil that I can buy three sizes. And then I can use it in the paring in the wing and surfing and pumping. And you can find this in the market. You can find this. Then, of course, if you want to, as I said, if you want to go in super light wind, then you make the extra extra cost to buy a good bigger board, bigger foil, a bigger paring. But yes, this is depends on people. Some people in Germany near Berlin, there's a lake. and they have very light wings. So they have only 10, 11 knots. So everybody has to size up, you know, but this is not the gold standard. Also Maui or Tarifa or, yeah, it's not the norm. mean, people, you see people with super small voice like 650s and yeah, but this is not the conditions I have in my place. Normally, I think normally people have something like, let's say 15 to 20. Luc Moore (27:35.452) Yeah, you're on tiny stuff. Yeah. No. Carlos Saez (27:51.363) which is a manageable good win. And you want to find the equipment that works there well. So I'm talking to these kinds of people like average foilers wanting to explore and to learn because the most fun thing of this sport is how mutant, how different can be, I mean, just pick your flavor, right? And power winging is coming super strong. Like... Luc Moore (28:14.226) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (28:18.753) my friends that are para-winging, and I've seen this all over the world. I will tell you what I get told by users. They start like, okay, let's try this. And then they get super hooked, like obsessed. And this is something I don't see in other parts of foiling. Para-wingers are crazy for para-winging. Like when you try and the most you learn, the most they want to focus on it, which is... For me, it's impressive because I don't know. I I'm right now in between a lot of different disciplines, but I think the ultimate goal of foiling is to surf the ocean. Like when I see these super good downwind guys like James Casey or Kai Thompson or Ed O'Tanas, and you see them flying, I don't see myself doing that. Why? Because I don't have the hours to put that training and that. because they need the technical ability, the fitness, and then you need to learn how to read the ocean. And this takes a lot of time and it's tip code for regular people, right? But I would love to be like them. So what can I use? I can use an assist and be in the bumps and just focus on learning to read the ocean. I can do this. I mean, this is something that once you're up on foil, you can manage to learn. And Parawing is the same. Luc Moore (29:28.359) Yeah. Carlos Saez (29:45.207) is the same. So you are up in foil, you go to the the the the wave line and then you stash it and you are out surfing the ocean like the pros. But without being a pro and without putting all those hours. I think this is the biggest advantage of foiling in in power winging and in the future. Also because of the downwind guys like SUP downwind guys, the logistics and the risk. OK, you have to to move a couple of kilometers or a couple of miles out to find the wave line. Then you're going downwind, you need the logistic of someone picking you up at the end, or if you crash in the middle and you cannot get up, then you have people taking care of having you secure, picking you with a boat or a jet ski or in the shore, whatever you are. This can happen also with para-winging. Para-winging is not free of risks. Para-wings actually, as I said, wind range is less big. So if the wind drops, you might be in trouble. That's why some people had this second para-wing stashed. So they're using a four and they had the five stashed. So the wind drops, but this is a logistic and complication, okay? And also the para-wings in waves, they can be dangerous because if the waves are kind of decent size and you fall, you can get tangled in there. You don't want to get in that situation. Luc Moore (30:52.344) Yeah, true. Luc Moore (31:07.812) Can they ever be? Carlos Saez (31:13.815) And also bad thing about para-winging is, what else? I totally lost the thread. Luc Moore (31:21.141) Well, the pump, the pumping aspect of it as well, like pumping a pair of wing is a lot more challenging than pumping a wing. They're starting, especially right now as well. I know the V2s and cause I was able to test some V2s at AWSI, their D-Power starting to get a little bit better. It started to feel like what I felt is that is the future because of how light it is, how responsive it is. It's just not quite there from the ones that I've been able to try at AWSI 2025. Now we're going to go in September. Carlos Saez (31:27.512) It's just different. Luc Moore (31:50.913) So I'm assuming we're gonna have a lot more toys to play with and a lot more brands to play with. So it's probably gonna be even further accelerated ahead. Some of you guys out there may have access to this stuff. We just haven't been able to test it yet. But for that, I think it's gonna be phenomenally fun. Cause for me, I like to free ride and like in La Ventana, for example. I might go there next winter. It would be an amazing spot for it because you would be going out, you could stash it, surf some swell and then go back upwind and do it fairly comfortably. If you want to go to the beach, then yeah, stick with your wing for waves because you don't want to get tumbled. But I see so much potential for it. Who do you recommend to get into it? Is this a beginner thing or is it an intermediate thing once you've mastered winging and foiling? Carlos Saez (32:13.017) red spot. Carlos Saez (32:38.879) definitely you need to be winging first, because if you want to start para-winging, it's going to be way harder. I mean, this is actually my real expertise is about teaching sports. And so it's all about progression. And I think winging is a quite accessible sport with the right board, right foil. Like I see people even really old people learning. If you have a flat water spot that is safe and you have 15 knots, people learn. People can learn fast. This is actually the fastest foiling sport to learn is winging in this with the right equipment. I would not say para-winging is the most difficult because I think the most difficult it might be surfing, surf foiling to start because you need to read the ocean, read the wave, get in sync. And then in the gate goal, have to lift and fly. And if you don't know how to... Luc Moore (33:30.167) there's so much. Yeah. Carlos Saez (33:37.071) to fly a foil, I think is the worst position because to learn to fly a foil, what you need is put minutes into the flight. So surfing waves, you put seconds. So that's why when you are winging, you put hours, right? So you get all these feelings way faster that you can later translate into surfing or whatever. But surf foiling can be achieved. I mean, I learned surf foiling, so I learned the hard way. But I remember... Once I managed to do it, I still didn't have long waves and not to get this feedback. So this is why I decided to go into winging because I was a windsurfer and I was sick of waiting for the wind and drops and shifts. So was like, I want to go only for surfing. But then I realized if I put the hours in winging, will benefit my surfing. now, now para-winging is the same now because I, when you know how to wing will be way easier to learn para-winging and When you stash, when you compare it to winging, because you have nothing on, nothing is pulling or is heavy or is making you lose the balance. Even if you stash it and put it in the bag, imagine you have your hands free and you're just surfing the ocean. So it's a mix between downwinding and surfing. Because if we manage to go with smaller boards, which is what paddle up surfers can do, because they need this some length and volume to get up. And what every downwind follower wants is to use the smaller wing they can to go faster and to turn a lot. So it's a compromise. But now with the para-winging, can maybe go in a 5'2 or a 5'5, which is pretty short. It's actually mid-length surf surfers use this size a lot. So you have the swing weight and everything, like you have the forward geometry. now... You have this side is great, better than downwind with a paddle. So imagine I can see people like with the wing stash and just surfing the ocean. And I imagine, you know, how cool is this? Because you can gather with a couple of friends, for safety. And also you can go just upwind, downwind and do legs. So you have your family at the beach, you go in your car, you only need a shuttle or logistics. You get your para-wind, go upwind. Carlos Saez (36:00.751) 10, 15 minutes and downwind and then you do laps. So even I see it safe because if you fall or something breaks, you're still in a range that is close to your takeoff point, right? You can paddle and stuff. So this is the strong points and before we talk about like maybe the weak points for a wing in, but I think it's a tool that when it appeared, I was hesitant. I was like, another gimmick, another, you know, they want to sell us another toy. Luc Moore (36:18.877) Big points, Luc Moore (36:28.464) Yeah. Carlos Saez (36:31.491) But no, now I totally changed my mind when I see people using it in lakes, in flood water or in waves. And this is also really important because in the beginning, para-winging was developed just for the bumps, to go to the wind line and do downwinds. But a lot of people is enjoying it in lakes. we'll see this part of the sport expand because also you can do freestyle para-winging, you can do downwind para-winging, you can do race para-winging. I mean racing without stashing it just as a sailboat, right? So for this competition in France, we decided to do like a mix being the first time ever that is done. We need to take everyone in. So some people maybe come from lakes, like from Austria or Germany. Some other people come from wave spots. And of course the differentiation that the para-wing has that not all the thing has is that the stashing. Luc Moore (37:15.388) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (37:31.983) Actually, SFT was built to put all the non-wind powered sport of foiling. This is why we have wake foil, surf foil, downwind foil, E-foil, foil assist, and para-wing, what is it? What is para-wing? Is it a wing, wind power or not wind power? We were thinking about it and actually we thought, well, the para-wing is just, the meaning of the para-wing is like a chairlift in a ski resort. So you use it to go to the wave. and then you want to start to surf. So that's why it was put into SFD right now. But yes, each division like Parawing might develop in freestyle or... But also I don't see people freestyling in a Parawing. You already seen some people, Like Justin Escoffet, Noé Cantaloupe or Malo Guénolé. But these guys are aliens. mean... Luc Moore (38:00.56) That's a point. Luc Moore (38:18.594) Yeah, I've balls and stuff. That was early on. Yeah. Yeah. Luc Moore (38:26.692) Yeah. Carlos Saez (38:27.311) I don't see the general public doing this. I think the big piece of the cake for regular people that want to enjoy the ocean is gonna be, as I said, this board that I told you to have a couple, two, three wings, depends. You can have an 800, 1000, and 1.3, or maybe you can just have the 1000 if you want to have one for, you would be compromising the light or stronger, but you have the most days of fun. So you can have one board, one sail. And one para wing, you're going to have one para wing and say get a four meter, but you need to know that to use a four meter, you will need at least 18 to 20 knots to start. Okay. Then a five meter para wing, we're talking about 15 knots. And then if you go higher, to some wings are 5.6 and I think there's a triple seven that is even seven meters. These wings are thought for these places that I told you like Germany or a place that is Luc Moore (39:01.338) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (39:26.255) 11 knots and they need a bigger wing and bigger foil. So this is specific uses like the main market will be as I said, if you want to par a wing, get the four. If you can get two, get a four and a five. Okay. Then if you can get three, because people like foil rat Daniel and a lot of my friends are having so much fun when the wind is strong. So they are loving it when it's like four three. So then maybe you have to go for a three or three five. Luc Moore (39:50.404) Yeah. Carlos Saez (39:55.791) 4, 4, 5, and a 5, 5, 5. These three sizes will get you going almost everywhere all the time. You can, of course, play with your wings. can put a 3, 5 on a 1,000 or a 700. That depends on you. But as I said, main market, main people, regular people, let's say 75, 25 kilos. Let's say having a couple of front wings, let's say 900, 1, 2,000 or If you're lighter, you can go to 800, 1000. That depends on your body weight and ability. Then you can use one board, use the same volume of your body, go up five liters or minus five. All this range is good. And the length to start, the longer, the easier. Once you realize you can feel the pump and the sink, you can go to a smaller size, which I think is going to be the future. But... Luc Moore (40:28.974) Mm-hmm. Yep. Carlos Saez (40:52.367) If you take a six or six two, like the one you showed before by 20, if you make it 22, you can already short it a bit. You know? So that's why I think, for example, for myself, I'm designing boards for pro riders. So I get all the feedback and you know, so what I do is I do the design and I send it to different workshops all over the world, whatever the rider is and they manufacture. Okay. So what I do is the design on board. Luc Moore (41:20.204) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (41:22.247) And this is for me that I'm in a beginner stage still, I need to improve a lot with para winging. I will do a five eight by 22 and 85 liter, which is more or less my weight. But as I said, riders are going for shorter, five two to five seconds. Actually, Mueller, the other day showed me a clip of what he's trying and it's five zero by 22. Luc Moore (41:38.356) Yeah, they're insanely good. Carlos Saez (41:51.087) 72 liters and he said in the video I can make it go in super light wind amazing and it's because of the technique you know as I said like narrower longer you need speed to take off and shorter you can really work out the movement the push so once you you figure that out you can go with shorter board but of course you need a bit more width as I said so this is all the info I can give which is I think a lot and it's pretty Luc Moore (42:13.994) Correct. Yeah. Well, it's a good start. It's a good start to this series. And what we might do next time on our second episode is we had a couple names in mind of inviting on. We might go a little bit down just to talk about the different brands and the different pair wings and go into high aspect, low aspect. Does it make a difference with the wider bar, narrower bar, bridle length, simple, complex? So maybe that'll be, we're gonna go for our second episode. But thanks a lot for everybody for tuning into our first little tech series here, Flight Mode with Carlos. And we're looking. That's the thing. Sure. Carlos Saez (42:49.709) We can nerd for hours. Look, we can nerd for hours and run. I want to just finish with something. If you're a shaper or a designer or a writer, don't take my word. I mean, it's all about testing. We are in a really early stage. I'm just sharing my comments and my opinions with the information and my experience, but I don't claim to have the truth at all. You know, this is just what I'm seeing. designers have different theories and technique. I always like to point that in Formula One, have the most million of euros and the budget and engineers and they do wings that doesn't work. So in this case, this sport is all about art. say it's art. It's like you have to have a mathematical mind and engineer mind, but then it's trial and error. Luc Moore (43:34.951) Mm-hmm. Carlos Saez (43:46.713) The same thing doesn't work sometimes for two persons. They go to different directions and they are both good. So we're really at the early stage. We have a lot to learn. So I really want to come out, even I'm talking a lot with this humble nest mind that we know nothing, we need to investigate. And I think here's where competition is really interesting, that we're pushing the limits. And when we put, there are 25 men and nine women already Luc Moore (44:05.415) Yeah. Carlos Saez (44:16.067) registered for France. When I'm there, because I will be the race director, I will see, this is the good thing in my position. I see which wings have a better angle, which one are faster, and which one are lighter, and how are they struggling with boards and foils, you know? But this is the fun part. I love it that is, I love sports when they are in the learning stage, because to me, this is the most fun unknown. Luc Moore (44:18.012) wow, nice. Carlos Saez (44:46.351) And, you know, otherwise you get like monotony, monotonous, and I love it. So this has to be, you know, said. And brands are bringing great products. I mean, new boards are amazing. The quality, the construction, the para wings are some brands pushing super hard, doing great designs. Also not really expensive, some of them. I can tell you a couple of brands with really rise good prices that other good wings. Luc Moore (44:48.145) That's true. Carlos Saez (45:16.239) You know, and the foils, I love it. love it. And so big, you know, big heads up. I want to thank the brands for pushing it. A lot of brands are not, I tell you, they're not earning money. It's not any business because, you know, it moves so fast. So behind brands, there is people that are passionate. I really want to evolve and to bring the best they can. And this is really Cool, really beautiful. Also people, know, like people trying stuff in different environments and conditions and being creative to new ways of using the foils. So this is amazing, man. We are just in the start. I see foil is here to stay. It's here to stay. Foil boarding is here to stay. So imagine five or 10 years, 10 years where how the equipment and where we will be, you know. Luc Moore (45:58.148) That's true. Luc Moore (46:14.174) it will be... Yeah, we won't even be able to tell what it is. Carlos Saez (46:16.451) And I don't think it's going to be, I don't like to go with equipment in the direction of high technology complicated. I want to go in the opposite direction. I mean, I think we will have profiles of foils that are really easy, wings that are easy. Just quick, I want to mention something that in the past with the kites, I remember, I can't talk about this brand shit because it's not here anymore. The brand was Wipika. Okay, one of the beginning brands of guiding. And they brought a model called the AMP. And the AMP was like thinner, you know, like high aspiration. And when you jump, because it's thin, it was flying really fast to the window edge. So it loses shape and fall. So every time we try tricks, kind of move over our head and falling. And I remember in that moment, the people selling the brand was saying, no, but the thing, This is technical stuff. need to be more technical. And I always my approach was bullshit. I mean, you need to do equipment that is easy. So your limit shouldn't be the equipment. The limit should be your ability. So you need equipment that is working properly, balanced, and then you can push. If the equipment is not letting you push, I think it's the wrong direction. So foil, boards, para-wing, wings, we will... better performance and better easiness to use. And this is what I say in five years, I think we will have wings that are super easy. They can go upwind really good. You can push them. Right now some wings when you push really fast, they try to bridge. They want to push you out. But some wings now, new profiles are good. They have a really great range. They're a great low range. And when you go high, they still are predictable. So this is the direction to make equipment that works in a wider window, that is easy. And this is how we will make the sport grow. And this is, think, where the brands need to focus. I wouldn't focus on super high-end tech because this is actually for really, well, for marketing purposes, it's interesting to have the best wing, more performance, but people need to know that a lot of times brands are hyping a product that is not for you. Carlos Saez (48:41.101) So you're salt on a dream. And when you go in the water with this equipment, you have huge level of frustration. And that's bad for the sport. So that's to mention that too. Luc Moore (48:51.338) Yep, that's true. Well, thanks for joining us, Carlos. We're looking forward to our second episode. And yeah, thanks for coming on. Thanks for geeking out about it. All right, folks, we'll see you on the next one. Carlos Saez (49:02.891) to you. I talk a lot. I haven't let you talk. Bye bye.