Flight Mode Episode #2 - The Parawing roundtable with FoilRat, Matt on Foil & HydroGav

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. On this episode, we sit down with Mr. HydroGav, Mr. FoilRat and Mr. Matt on Foil. They join us for a raw unfiltered roundtable on parawinging which is one of the fastest growing and most exciting disciplines in foiling right now. So we do hope that you enjoy this episode. Next I'd like to say a big thank you to our team. We have Frank, Stefan and Pam. Thank you guys for your continued work into 2026.

[00:00:30] Next we want to introduce WaterSpeed as the official app of the Foil Life community. It is the app water sports athletes use to track their performance on the water. You can connect your Garmin, Coros, Apple Watch and Vaccaros and it starts logging everything. Speed, tacks and jives, foiling time, live tracking, VMG, polar charts and more.

[00:00:51] It's the kind of data that actually tells you whether you're getting faster, here it is, or just feels like you are. It works across 30 plus water sports including downwind, wing foiling, sailing, windsurfing and it turns every session into something you can learn from. This is what performance tracking looks like when it's actually built for the water. So before you listen to this episode, go download WaterSpeed and make sure to join those DEFI challenges.

[00:01:18] Not very many days left. So it's available on iOS and Android. Lastly, we want to give a big shout out to our sponsors for the 26th season. We have North Foils, Mystic, OnKiteboarding and of course, WaterSpeed. We want to make sure to visit foillifepodcast.com forward slash sponsors to learn more about them. Now I hope you enjoy this special show. Welcome to Foil Life. Whether you wing, kite, parowing, downwind, pump or e-foil, thanks for being here.

[00:01:50] Welcome, welcome. I think all of us are in the same room. Time zones, everything's organized. Super organized. So it's nice to see all your faces. So what are we going to talk about today? Apart from racing, we're going to talk about what? One of our favorite sports? Yeah, I have a list. I have a list here of things to talk about that I think is going to be interesting. Perfect. Let's do it. Because, okay, so my goal is to think about this podcast between all of us. I think we are... No, no, no. Listen. Do it, Carlos.

[00:02:20] No, you are the influencers. You are the influencers. We're four hosts in the same room. Yeah, you have. Exactly. But let me just put it like in the beginning and then you continue. So what I think is, as Gap said, this sport is so young that... And you have tried since the beginning, like many, many boards, many foils, many... And a lot of information is going to be great for that person that wants to learn.

[00:02:48] So let's put all of our knowledge together. Maybe, look, you're a beginner, right? Me, I'm a beginner too. And these other guys are pros right now. So I think we are kind of getting the picture of the whole market. Okay? So let's say this is a podcast where people can come to and get answers. Because I see at every beach, people is asking me, how do I start? Where do I start? What do I go?

[00:03:18] Brands, as you know, has a lot of marketing departments selling the dream. But let's see, let's try to sell the reality. And who better than you that have put the hours into this? So I had some ideas. Let's see. We can... First, maybe we need to introduce ourselves. Let's do that. I think we're all celebrities here. Everybody knows us. Don't worry about it. If they don't know us, there's a problem, Carlos. Yeah.

[00:03:50] What hole are they living in? We should introduce each other. No, but Matt and me, Matt and me, we are in Europe. Then you have Daniel and Gavin, who is in the other side of the world. Let's say Asia, Australia side. And you look, you're more in US and Africa, right? So we are world domination. Canada normally, yeah. That's right. World domination here. We got all continents covered. So, yeah, I was thinking, Frank, send us some questions.

[00:04:18] So first is, what advice would you give to yourself if you were going to start from scratch again? So let's hear each one. Let's start. For example, when to start? Gavin, come on. Oh, you know what? I'll start. Yeah, yeah. I'll start because the advice is probably what I actually did do, which is just grab whatever's available. And that's probably the biggest thing is that I see too many people asking, oh, which one, which one, which one?

[00:04:47] And I always say the same thing. It's like whatever is available and is at a good price, grab it and go out. That's kind of one of the biggest bits of advice I can tell anybody is that don't overthink gear at this point. Just get a power wing, any power wing. Get it in your hand. Use your wing board. Use the foil that you've already got and just go out and just start learning. That's probably the biggest bit of advice I think you could give anybody is don't overthink it.

[00:05:14] Just get the cheapest, most accessible one you can get your hands on and learn the basics. And then you can start, you know, fine tuning gear and, you know, and getting into what I talk about in my, you know, in my YouTube channel all the time, which is, you know, the little finicky little best bits of the power wings. That's kind of my advice, I think. Okay. Let's hear. Daniel, what do you think? Uh, I think power wing wise, grab anything.

[00:05:42] I think today the power wings are all working. Um, there are better power wings that do, you know, better upwind angles than others, but to get you on foil, things are good. Um, with regards to the rest of the gear and Carlos, we spoke about this a little bit when, when we had a chat not long ago, I always talk about the three levers. You have the foil, the board and the power wing. And if you want to go with a small foil, you know, the other two levers have to go up. Your board has to go up.

[00:06:11] Your, your power wing has to go up. Um, if you want to go with the small power wing, then, you know, your foil has to go up. Your board has to go up. So play around with these levers. But at the start, I just got the biggest gear I had. So I went out with the code 30 S. That was the biggest foil I had and still own. Uh, still used it, used it today actually. Um, and I had a, it was a V one Armstrong downwind board.

[00:06:39] It was like a seven, nine by 21, um, 121 liters. So big, you know, and that was super helpful. I got up pretty quickly. Um, and what you want to do at the start is just be on foil. If you can't get on foil, you're not going to learn. And people are like, Oh, but that's not the stuff I want to ride. I know it's not the stuff nobody wants to ride, but, um, if you're not on foil, you're not learning.

[00:07:05] So the first five sessions will be the feeling of, you know, experiencing the power wing on foil. And after that, like Gavin said, you know, then you can say, this is what I want to do with the power wing. And you start optimizing your gear, but maybe start with something like a demo board. I always say, go to your local shop, get a big downwind demo board, chuck your biggest foil on and, um, grab a pair wing that, you know, will get you up depending on your wind and go for it.

[00:07:33] There's plenty of information on size pair wing. So I think just go with big gear, you know, basically. Matt or Luke. Yeah. Matt's on foil most in all of us. It's in his name. So he should have a good answer for us. No, that's Gab, man. That's Gab. No, what, well, I think super important is that you just go on shore first, like do it on the beach, like do your beach sessions, your beach hours, and also the skateboard. I can't like stress that enough.

[00:08:00] I think the skateboard is such a good tool to learn those pair wing movement, see how it behaves. So I think that's next to everything you said already, obviously. And as for the pair wings, yeah, the new ones are all good. Like I'm going to have difficulties like doing the reviews because this is a good pair wing. This is also a good pair wing. And the next one is probably also going to be a good pair wing. Yeah, totally. We are going to get better and better equipment. But I will add to what you said and following what Daniel thinks.

[00:08:30] I think when you learn surfing, right, you try to get a huge board, super wide, just maybe for one, two, three sessions. But that will help you a lot. I see people learning on a seven and people learning on a nine. And the one on nine gets the thing faster and translate it into the seven. Some people is just thinking on starting on a smaller surfboard and they took ages. Same for foiling.

[00:08:56] As Daniel said, try to get a huge board, big pair wing, big foil, just for your first sessions. And you get the hang of it. And maybe it's only for two, three sessions. But the time you're going to put in that is going to totally make you go faster in the next phase. Right. So, and this is great because now we have a lot of second hand equipment or friends. Then you can borrow equipment and just use it.

[00:09:22] So I'd like to put numbers like when we give advice, it's good to get the advice. But people need to know the information. As Daniel said, what foil? What I'm seeing, my friends are learning on big foils. Let's say the big Armstrong 1080 or I'm on the North 1230, which is thick and very easy. I tried that one for a bit. I think that's really helping this phase.

[00:09:51] And then later, also something really important, you need to be overpowered, right? Don't go with light when the first time you go, it's so difficult to get the coordination of all the equipment. So big foil, kind of, let's say a five meter or four meter, doesn't matter, but good power, right? Yeah. I wouldn't even bother going in under 15 knots if you're just starting off.

[00:10:16] Over 15, like 15 on a five, you'll be able to get some inertia going and you might get up. But the first sessions, now remembering it a little bit better, it's just about hand handling. How to hand handle that thing in the water, how to launch it, how to land it, how to pick it up when it's completely under the water. So expect to maybe just be happy with learning that, you know, and not even being on foil for the first session.

[00:10:44] There's a little bit of just learning how to manage it in the water. I think there's a lot of humility that has to come out of it because most people that are learning to power winging are coming from, you know, maybe their masters in other sports. And I'm seeing it locally where you're getting some really good downwinders, like downwind sub guys who are like having to take, you know, this pill and start from the beginning again. And some of them, it's just not for them. They're just going, you know what, I'm not doing it.

[00:11:13] You know, I've put too much time and they give it a couple of goes and they just go, nah, not for me. And so I think you've got to expect that you're going to have shocking sessions. Like I, even to this day, I still occasionally will go out and not get up because I've chosen the wrong gear. But that still happens. Like, so you just got to accept that it's part of the learning process, I think. And, you know, taking a bit of humble pie and, you know, the age old, I know it's been said so much, but it's, you know, the journey and trying to enjoy that.

[00:11:42] And, but I guarantee you it's worth it. Like it's so good. We all know it is. In my opinion, in my opinion, that's the most fun part. I always like the part of learning because it's most challenging. Right. So, yeah. Very interesting what you're saying. Very interesting. Yeah. Yes. Keep going. Well, my learning, I learned last year in La Ventana and I had a 72 liter KT board with my regular wing board, a 1230 SF.

[00:12:13] And then what I found is my wind window was so small on my V1 that I had to be overpowered, which led to me being crazily out of control. So I switched to the 830 SF, which gave me a little bit less low end, but it gave me more control when I was up and going. And that's what I found I enjoyed more. But I had to just learn how to scream up wind because that pair wing that I had had a lot of power and I couldn't dump the power. So you just had to figure out that window.

[00:12:40] And the worst thing that happened to me was it was 30 knots or something and I was on a three meter. And I just body dragged like a kite back to shore because I couldn't handle it. And then when I was OK, I sat on my board and I body dragged back in on the board. And that's the worst that happened to me. And in that situation, but you had to be a foil aficionado before. There was no way I could have done that unless I had a really good control of my foil.

[00:13:06] Because you're screaming and you're like, oh, so it's like you're screaming full speed hooked in. And it's like, OK, I got to shift up wind or else I'm going to get eaten. And so that was my first couple experiences. But it's such a cool feeling to be able to do it. So it's fun. It's worth it. You brought a really important point saying foil aficionado. Yeah. We have very different backgrounds. So if someone is a paraglider, they already have some advantage. If you're a kiter, you have some advantage.

[00:13:34] You know the wind window and everything. So it's difficult to put numbers on people that are starting because we all come from different. Some people are coming from pumping. Some people are coming from surfing. Some people are coming from kiting or winging. And also we talk about this with Matt and me. That if you want to start parawinging from zero, it's so difficult. I mean, but if you go through kiting, kite foiling or wing foiling, it's way easier, right?

[00:14:04] So each one has a different start point. And also each one has a different ability. Like I was a snowboard instructor too. And when I have groups of 10, there are three people that is really bad at learning and three that are really fast learning. And it's difficult to bring the group together. And this is the same. Some people will start slower. That doesn't mean that they later will have a faster progression. But each one is different. Can I say something about that, Carlos? That's an interesting point.

[00:14:35] Whenever I'm speaking a lot with people now that are just starting and knowing their background, their foiling background is the first thing I ask. Like, what do you do today? And people that wing, they'll have a very good advantage at those early stages of just having that board balance and, you know, that taxing speed and getting up and having that feeling of being, you know, having a pendulum in your hand and just having that balance.

[00:15:04] Once you pass that, the kiters start getting the advantage. When you're up on foil and you're flying, I see kiters just excel and learn so quick because down loops, you know, like Heineken jogs. Those things you do when you kite foil. The same maneuver. So that's one. And I have one guy in the course now. He doesn't foil at all and he's learning how to paring.

[00:15:32] The first foiling that he is doing is on the paring. And he's on foil. He's flying. He's flying. Come on. But he is a dedicated motherfucker, I'm going to say. He has to be. And I'm super proud of the guy. And it is a little bit about, Gav said, he mentioned it, the humility of getting out there. And in the beginning, I didn't really hear a lot of advices of people because there wasn't much.

[00:16:02] But like now if someone said don't go another 15 knots, I wouldn't care. I would still go because every little session you learn something and I'm kind of I have that mind frame, you know, like if some people feel defeated and they don't like that, man, just go out when the conditions are like 20 knots and perfect. You'll be fine. But if you're the type of person that likes the pain, just get out there every day, man, and you'll learn something as well. There's always something to be learned.

[00:16:31] But your background is super important. Yeah, man. Sure, man. Because I think it's if someone's wing, obviously that's I think the easiest thing to then switch on a parowing. But if you have a wing with a boom, try to fly it one handed. Because that's for me the most closest that a wing wing comes to a parowing. Because you cannot like sheet in and like help yourself with balance. But it's just there and sometimes it pulls you off balance a bit.

[00:17:00] So I think the one handed wing before parowinging maybe to just feel that balance that could that could help. Nice trick. Nice advice. Yes. I think it's a really interesting sport because I'm seeing locally that it's bringing a lot of people that have had no wind sports background at all, which is a strange one for me. You know, for someone that's that's my background completely.

[00:17:24] And so you're getting guys that maybe have learned to foil behind a boat, then proned, and then got down this downwinding sub business. And then they've been doing that for two years. Like that's all they do. And now this trend is coming on and they're all trying to get on board and they're learning like they have no idea about wind. And they find it really hard. Like the bit that they're going to excel in is when they get through the barrier and then they can pack away and then they can just downwind.

[00:17:52] And yeah, that's the crowd that I'm finding are sort of what's the word looking for? Well, you know, failing and throwing the towel in and saying I'm not going to do anymore because I think they just get so frustrated that they're used to being really good at something. And now they're right back at square one. And it's kind of like the mindset of a surfer, like, you know, trying to get a surfer to foil.

[00:18:19] It's like, well, I've put this much time, you know, I've dedicated like 50% of my life into getting this good. There's no way I'm going to start again. And I get, I do get it. I understand that completely. But I am seeing that slightly with power winging, particularly locally. But Gavin, that depends because I see we, like talking to Daniel, like I have been windsurfing, surfing, kiting, SUP. So I love the challenge.

[00:18:46] I just, I think in the past, in the past, surfers were outsiders, right? Like in California in the 60s, right? And now everybody surfs. So I always say foilers are the outsiders, you know? We're the punk ones. Nobody likes us, but we are the ones pushing it. Like, I don't care what you think. This is cool, you know? So this attitude is totally like in the past with surfing. Okay, let's move to the next question, which I think is really interesting.

[00:19:17] Like, now we covered the learning process. Now imagine you are in the mid. You already got the hang of it. What equipment would you recommend for your daily 80% of the session conditions? Let's talk one board quiver or two board quiver. Two, three para wings. What kind of board size, foil size. Let's try to make this because it's going to be interesting for the regular user. Because people don't know what to get.

[00:19:46] Like to get two boards or one board or super. Like you, Gavin, you were talking the other day about this 65-liter board, which is crazy how you said it was easy to take it to the planning, foiling phase. And talking to Daniel and Luke also, from the pros, I'm seeing something different. Different directions in board shape for 2027. So let's see. Let's talk about that.

[00:20:13] Let's talk about what would you recommend for a regular guy? Let's say having two or three para wings or one para wing and one board. Let's see. For 80% of the base. Let me jump in. I'm not going to talk about boards because, honestly, I'm in this real sort of crossroads with boards at the moment because of this 65-liter one. So I'll come back to it in a moment. But I think I'll start with the para wings.

[00:20:39] And I think, again, this is another barrier to entry for para winging. I genuinely think if you're going to get into it, you need at least two para wings in order to cover a decent wind range and get your time on the water. So if you try, and I understand it. That's exactly what I did. I just bought one. And you very quickly find the limitations of that, both in the upper and the lower end. So what I recommend to people is get one, learn the ropes.

[00:21:07] But very quickly, if you're going to do it, jump in with both feet and get at least two. And ideally, you need three. Like if I'm completely honest with you, if you're going to do it. Well, if you're going to get three, you might as well get four. There we go. There we go. Now we're talking. Get them all. But I think like, you know. How many do you have, guys? How many para wings do you have? So like I, like in terms of like wind range and sizes, I have my smallest is a 1.8.

[00:21:36] And I've used that quite a bit. I'll be honest with you. Like in our winters, we get really strong. No, no, that's the pocket rocket. It's a 1.8, 1.9. It was a 1.9. And in our winter, I use that a lot. And actually, I'm always surprised at how quickly I can get up with the, you know, if you, as Dan said, change the levers of other things, you can get up pretty quick using that.

[00:21:58] So yeah, a 1.9, a 3, probably my most used, a 4, a 5, and a 5, 6. And that gets me up in pretty much any condition. So I get some. Easy. Easy. Easy. 5 para wings. Shells over, boys. I think 2 is what you need. I think that's the intermediate phase. I think is you need, I reckon, obviously it depends on where you are.

[00:22:26] And that's really important to understand like, you know, the conditions you face. Even in Hood River, you probably need one. But if you're in real world conditions, I think you need a span of probably, I don't know, like a 3 and a 4 or a 3 and a 4, 5, something like that. And I think that's a really good span for para wings. That's, that's my opinion anyway. I don't know what you guys think. That's actually, that's actually a disadvantage against winging. Because winging with a couple of wings, you really cover a really wide range of, of the window. And para wing.

[00:22:55] But then, sorry, sorry, just to jump into that. So as you get better, your wind range increases massively. And, you know, I've, I've just gone through that massive span of wings that the reality of it is that I probably could get away with just two pretty much for everything. Because now I'm pretty efficient at getting up because I pulled the levers on other things. And, um, you know, and then at my upper level now I'm really locked into the harness. I can use a smaller wing.

[00:23:22] So it, I, I reckon right now my range is the same as winging. Like I genuinely think that. And, and the other thing I wanted to say about the two power wing things, this is the beauty of, of this sport is you can take a second one with you in your backpack. That's amazing. That's game changing. So, and I do that all the time, not only for safety, but I can just swap out on the water and I do it regularly, like on a downwind run. I go, oh, I was overpowered on that last one. Let's swap out, swap out. And then I'm up again. That's incredible.

[00:23:52] Like that was, you know, when the first time I did that, I was like, oh my God, this sport's amazing. Like, you know, the fact that you can do that is just unbelievable. I even took three yesterday, not for reviewing. I went, I did downwind here at the Riva del Garta and it's like, it's offshore at the beginning. So it's super gusty. So I took the 4.3, the hybrid, which has an amazing range. And then further on it picked up. It went like there was a 40 knots measured and I had a two and a half square meter, which

[00:24:20] was on the upper limit. But I still took my huge wing with me just in case the wind dies like the seven meter and everything was packed in a backpack. And I had my stash belt free for the one that I was using. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Well, I'd say I'm not that kind of person. I mean, I like to go with one far away and maybe have the other at the shore, you know, and not have 20 things. I don't even wear a leash.

[00:24:48] You know, I like, I'm one of these persons that like to be like really free on the board. So even if I'm surf oiling and I have nothing, I don't use it. No board leash. No, no, never. Oh, I lost my board with that. I found it, but it was at the bottom of the lake the next day and I had a fucking heart attack trying to find it. It was a slow movie. It was just like I would swim and it would be an inch away and two inches away. And it was a brand new. But swimming with a parowing is terrible. It was an Armstrong foil.

[00:25:17] Oh my God, I was scared. Anyways. Yeah. You got some, you got some cohibas. Okay. So now we know about the parowing. Let's, let's talk about foils or from front wings or boards. Let's hear from Dan. What are you using, man? Me? Um, I, I am using, I have a 1.9, 2.43, 3.6. I have them all. 4 of 3 and the 5. I got 6. It's embarrassing.

[00:25:47] Yeah. But you're bigger. You've only got a 5. Oh, come on, Dan. Come on, man. Come on, man. But I, um, I, I can get up on the 5 and pretty much anything these days. Um, I think when, look, when, when you talk about this, um, general question about what gear to start on, what parowing to start on, I get this question pretty much every day.

[00:26:13] Like there's every day, there's someone asking me this exact question and what I always ask them back. So if you are going to ask me this tomorrow, please jot down these notes. What's your weight? Number one, what's your weight? Um, yeah. So, um, and the second one is like, what are your conditions? So what wind do you ride in? And number three, what you want to do with the parowing?

[00:26:38] Do you want to just go downwind or are you someone who feels like wants to go upwind and do the upwind, downwind thing? Um, in general terms, when I think about someone who's 80 kilos, 180 pounds, give a take. Um, if you're riding in 20 knots, I think the 3.6, a three and a half is pretty, pretty good with a big board and a big foil, you'll be fine.

[00:27:04] Um, but it's so hard to give like a general advice like that because depending on what you want to do, if you want to go downwind, then you might want to actually be a little bit overpowered because it doesn't matter. You're going to use the thing for a second and then you can go, you have the option of using smaller foils, which we all want to do. Right? So when someone asked me, oh, what should I get? There's a little bit of a background check that you have to do, um, to, to help them out a little bit because otherwise it's just too hard. Like it could be anything really.

[00:27:34] Good answer. Yes. And that is going to bring me to my next question that is about physical, physical fitness. Yes. But, but let's finish with the, we talk about the, well, let's, let's, let's, you do, I know you say it's difficult to put numbers, but it's really important for people because people is totally lost and these numbers are giving them a ballpark, you know? So your experience, Gavin, mine, Matt, you know, or, or Luke is, is going to help them make their mind.

[00:28:04] So, so in my opinion, regarding numbers, are you, are you asking me numbers? No, no. You, you, you said it, you said it like 80 kilos, you know, it's, it's nice to put, even it's difficult, it's difficult, but it's good to put some frame there because it's, it's very valuable, valuable info. Okay. Yeah. So with, with the boards, just to give a little, uh, the last little bit of this is, is always, I always say 20 liters over your body weight in kilos is a good starting point. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:32] What about, what about when you are already proficient? I mean. One to one weight to volume ratio, I think. I agree. Is awesome. And always count, like Gav said, he always has a couple of pair wings on them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I have 90% of the time I'm wearing a wetsuit. So factor those things in, right? I, I factor in wetsuit, I factor in 85 kilos, but I'm around 80, 82, whatever. But like with an extra pair wing and, you know, a wetty. Yeah. That's exactly.

[00:28:59] I like to give, I like to go this, this advice of minus five plus five, you know, that's good. And also safety wise, if it's only one board, that board will let you go in real light wind and strong wind. Otherwise, of course you can go lower, but you're going to not benefit you in the, in the other side of the window. Yeah. What I've found with boards and I've played around with a lot of boards recently is that, um, I said I wasn't going to go into this, but yeah, I totally agree with what Dan's just said.

[00:29:29] It's like, for me, I'm 80 kilos. Uh, 85 is, is like the, is the money. And that's what I've been doing for a long time. Um, and then there is a diminishing return. Um, I'd say on board size in terms of how hard it is to get up, up until 65 liters, which is 15 below my weight. And then it becomes, that's the hard stop. If you go below that, it's, it's so much harder to get up onto foil. Um, so that's the kind of the sweet spot.

[00:29:57] And then the other end of the scale, and if you start going too big, it then becomes too long. And then lines start getting, it's cumbersome. You can't maneuver the board to be able to depower when you're, when you're straddling it. So it's, it's like harrowing in is in this really sweet spot of like 15 below to around 15 to 20 above your body weight. And if you go beyond those extremes, it becomes, um, like a diminishing return as I, as I said.

[00:30:25] And I think we're going to start to say, well, I know we are like this, this year, the, like halfway through this year, the brands are now bringing out specific harrowing boards, which are going to address some of the issues that we've got with the general mid length, which is a little bit more volume up in the nose. You know, it needs to be a little bit more efficient getting up and, and, and the tapping, the displacement of the water is key.

[00:30:50] And then once you're up on foil, a board of that sort of like 85 to, you know, seven, sorry, 65 liters, it doesn't feel that dramatically different. Like it really doesn't like, you know, once you're used to like using a downwind board, that's like a hundred kilos, a hundred liters or other 115, any board is going to feel great. Like it's, it's not the same as winging where like with winging, like you can get on a 45 liter board and have a great time on waves. It's, you don't get that same return with power wing. And that's what I found.

[00:31:19] Let me add something about boards because the boards, Gavin, the boards you're riding are last year's model, right? Yeah. They are in the market now. Yeah. But the boards I'm designing are next year models. Yeah. And I'm doing them for the riders. So I want to tell you what we learned. Now, as you said, too much volume in those boards are making them long and they have swing weight, but boards are getting way more compact now.

[00:31:42] So this mid length shape, it was coming, I would say it was coming more from a downwind long board, making it short. And what I'm seeing now, the guys are using and designing is more like a wing raised board that is scaled up. Okay. So it's like more like, like the, the, the nose is rounder and the, the rails are more parallel and the tail is wider. Yeah. And also the rocker is flatter.

[00:32:12] So they can use a small platform that is well, well balanced. And they, instead of using, because as we said, if you need 15 knots to start, you're not making it in 14. And it doesn't matter if you are below the water or over the water. Once you get the pool, you can start working, working the kit. Right. So what they do is they, they use the, it's like pumping. They just, they use the, the, the, the pumping movement and they pushed water, not only penetrate,

[00:32:40] just push and create the, so this is the direction I'm seeing. But that's for the pros, right? No, no. Because the pro, I mean, Bals is using a 5-0, 72-litre. Don't take Bals into account what he's death test is. He's out of this world, man. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But hear, hear me, hear me. Bals is using 5-0, 22, 72-litres. And he's like saying his, his weight is 72, 75.

[00:33:10] So it's same more or less. But I know since if, if Bals is using this, why not do you kind of use a 5-8, you know, in this kind of same shape? A 5-8, a bit wider, a bit flatter is going to make it. And we will see, we will see because, I mean, we're going to see in Little Cat. I'm bringing boards and people is going to test different shapes. We'll see. But I think it's doable. And if you see when you, when you, when you use this movement of pumping, also with winging.

[00:33:38] Remember, winging, we started with really long boards. And now people use really small boards and use this movement. So once you get the hang of it, you can make a board work. I'm not saying go into the extreme and go to the smallest board because they are wider. I mean, right now boards are 6-0 by 20 and maybe next year are 5-8 by 21 or 22. This is what I'm saying. So they're a bit stovier. And that's going to be cool because in the end, this is, this is what I'm seeing.

[00:34:06] What you want to do with, with the paraguing is to surf the ocean. So if the board is long, it totally limits you a bit. So when you make it more compact, it feels more like surfing. I'm not saying you need to go to extremes, but each, each bit here and there is going to help you a bit. That is true. You know, you can touch with your rail as well on the wave. So make not too wide is not a good thing either.

[00:34:32] I think it is important that for people, especially beginners, they take something they're used to. If they're used to a subfoil board, hey, that doesn't matter if it's not for paraguing specifically. Just take the one that you're used to, that you're comfortable with. That will help so much. True. Let's see. Let's just, let's see. This, this topic about boards and board shape is interesting.

[00:34:55] And I think like when we're talking about a shape, I think if you're, if you're talking about a stubby shape for like 15 knots or light winds, just generalized light winds. It is so different to generate speed on a paraguing than it is on a wing because you don't have that rigid canopy, right? So once you pump and you go back, you have, you generate a lot of slack on the lines.

[00:35:23] And I think the, your technique has to be so spot on with the pumping, synchronizing the pumping of the paraguing with the pumping of the board, which there is a synchronization that works well.

[00:35:36] So when I feed, when I, when I talk to people that are starting and they're, they're doing like light winds, I think it's easier for them to understand getting up as building board speed in the water, on the water, like with a board, because you like, you really cut your angle. So you're going to be going crosswind a lot, like 30 degrees downwind max, right? And you're going to slowly build that speed with the board.

[00:36:04] But to ask someone with very little knowledge of the paraguing to get up on a stubby board, I, it's, it's going to require so much like finesse. Cause even punching through the water with a foil, sometimes I'm pumping up and I go too hard and bang, you know, like you're too slow for the foil. It doesn't get, it's, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. Yes. But, but the question is what it's, what is stubby?

[00:36:30] I mean, 25 wide is stubby, but if you go from 20 to 22 or 21 and a half, which is just a bit more, it's something in the middle. And I always like to find the balance between measurements, right? Remember when we started surfing or windsurfing, we always go to the extreme or, or winging. People were using super short board, like four twos, four threes. Now people is not using that anymore. They're going back to four tens and fives. Okay.

[00:36:59] Because it's like, you're the cooler, you have the smaller board, right? Or the smallest foil. And this is what I don't like. So we push, yeah, we push these limits and now we find this balance between parameters, which I think is really interesting. And, and we can only do this through trial and error. You know, What's the smallest board that you guys have paralleling? Let me know. I mean, What's the question? Because I'm curious. What's the smallest board that you guys have paralleling in terms of lead to 40? Wow.

[00:37:29] In, in the flat or in wave? No, in honking wind. Yeah. And going downwind. So super big. Because what Gav said is super interesting with the volume limit. And I spoke about this with a few people already. And there's a certain volume and I agree 65 for my weight is spot on 80 kilos, 85 suited up. And the reason why is the type of riding I want to do.

[00:37:56] So for me, 65 is the smallest volume. I can use a paralleling that I can still go upwind with. If I go. Yeah. That's the key. Yeah. Yeah. If I go 50 or 40, I can get it up. Like you just chuck the biggest paralleling you have. But I'm just going to go downwind. And then that's an option you have to do. Like depending on the type of riding you're going to do. If you're going to go downwind, you can get up on a 30 liter board. But you're going to, you're not going to be going upwind with the paralleling that you're going to be using. You know what I mean?

[00:38:26] Gav did a paralleling switch video so we can use that. Yeah, that's right. You could go down. But then, you know what? But then the other, you've got the other, it's so location dependent. And skill. And, you know, this is why it's such an open-ended question. Because, you know, you're then in a scenario where, like if I took a 35, 45 liter board out in our open ocean and then came down and can't come back up again, the consequences are real. Like you've got then, you've got like an hour paddle back in an ocean you don't want to be in.

[00:38:56] Like it's during travel. Yeah. It's just not worth that risk for me. Like you don't get, you just don't get the risk versus reward thing. Like I think, and that's why, of course, you know, you can, you know, Baz would be able to get a bloody, you know, tea tray up if he wanted to. But it's, you know, is that sensible? Probably not. Like, you know, but so I think, you know, it's just this sort of, like with everything and boiling, it's a give and take. And I think that that is sensible lower end for most riders.

[00:39:25] Like, of course, pros and really good guys are going to be able to expand out. I totally agree. Totally, Gavin. I totally agree. But I just want to tell you what I see in the competition right now. Everyone is from 5'2s to the biggest 5'6s. Okay. Having this width of 22 as a middle ground and they use sometimes the same volume as their weight and they make it work.

[00:39:48] Like, I'm not saying we are going to make it work, but okay, not a 5'6, but maybe a 5'8 or a 5'10, which is already lower than 6'2, right? So this is just my opinion. And let's see, let's see how it develops. It's interesting to see because I think each time paraguings are better designed, they have better ground, better low end. And boards are also going for early planning because even if you have a wider tail, you think it's going to make drag behind you.

[00:40:17] But in the end, you use the tail to push. So when you push, you have this small fly ollie that in that moment, the board accelerates a lot. So what I'm saying is it is still a lot to learn, no? Yeah, I would suggest those boards. Yeah. I also think that the boards are a reaction to the power wings that we're using at the moment. So as they get better, boards will then evolve and develop as a result of that.

[00:40:45] So as the wind range gets better, which they will do next year when they're upwind and, you know, we're really still in its infancy. We all know, like, you know, it's going to be a very different conversation in three years' time. Yeah, but very interesting that we didn't have a parawing board developed. I mean, what happened is parawing appeared and we used the SUPs. That's right. Yeah. Right? And then when you manage that, then you have the mid-lengths and you move to the mid-lengths.

[00:41:11] But the sport is so new that it's actually not the board really designed for it yet. I mean, we are on it. That's my point. We're still compensating, aren't we? We're compensating for the shortfalls of the gear. So we need a bigger mid-length because, you know, we don't have bottom end on the parawing. But if that gets better, that changes everything, you know? And the same for foils.

[00:41:35] It's like parawing foils, like they're all models that were not really good maybe for winging that now are great for parawinging. Because they have this early lift that is going to help you, you know, balance this less pull of the parawing compared to a wing when you pump. So that's interesting too. That's interesting. Let's see when we have dedicated foils and boards for this sport.

[00:42:02] I think it's super difficult because once someone comes out with a parawing foil, how much of that is going to be just marketing? I think it's so difficult to like figure that out. Yeah, but Matt, you're using your Indiana pump foil, right? What's the name? Condor? No, the Condor. No. I used the Barcura. Now I have like a surfy foil. Depends on the condition, obviously.

[00:42:29] But like having a parawing foil, I don't know. It surprised me. No, I don't mean a parawing foil. I mean, for example, what I use, I'm using the North SFs. And the SFs are known to be lifty. They pull a lot for their size. So normally with the parawing, I'm overpowered really fast on a big SF foil. Sorry, with the wing, but not with the parawing. So I find these foils really good for parawinging.

[00:42:59] Like SF680 or 830, they are good. Also, if you go to code, and now you go to the code 850S, people were moving to another foil. But S is a great foil for parawinging too. This is my point. My point is there are models there, kind of a bit forgotten, that now are working great for parawinging. Just that. No, I definitely agree with that. I think the parawinging is like, that's all I used to use with the S. I still do.

[00:43:26] Like it's such a great foil for all different types of conditions. And it was almost a little bit on the back burner for me. I wasn't really using it for a while. And then that's all I was using. Because it's just some brands can rebrand their old foils to parawing foils. Yeah, that's what I mean. There you go. I've got a question for you guys actually, because it's the one that I get quite regularly. Not so much online, but more from friends actually.

[00:43:53] Like if you're going to get into parawing, what size parawing? Everyone asks that question all the time. And I find that one of the hardest ones to answer, because obviously it depends on so much. But they're only going to buy one. So which one do you get? What size do you get? Matt, how about you? Sorry, I keep down. I tell people to – sorry. Yeah, I just jumped in there like a maniac. I tell people to size – That's why we love you. That's your job, isn't it? Jump in there?

[00:44:24] Size for the bottom end of like your condition. So if people live in gusty places and it's like, oh, here it's like 20 to 40. So size for 20. And when it's 40, you sit down and you wait. Like if you size for 40 and you get something for 40, you're not going to get up when it's 20. So it doesn't matter. So it's always, again, like it's the same kind of series of questions. Like the one parawing, what should I get? What do you do? What do you weigh?

[00:44:54] What do you want to do with it? Even like what gear do you have? You know, like influences that. Like if some people just have small wing horses. We don't care what number. Come on. If you want one that will work, get a four. Four over three. That's what I say. I say four. Between four and four to one. Because you want some power. Yeah. Yeah, but it depends. It's a combination of you need power. You need to be able to pack it down as well, right? Fuck it. Just get five.

[00:45:23] The harlow is. Yeah, that's the key too. My friends, my friends were learning on a four. I was like, get all the ozones. My friends were living on a four and they were always needing more wind. So my answer would be the size that make you go overpowered, a bit overpowered on your spot. So if you're in a spot that is blowing 15, then take a five. Or go to 20, take a five. But if you're going to, as you said, going 20 knots and more, then you can go on a four. And of course it depends.

[00:45:53] Do you know what's a little bit annoying about the sizing of pairwings right now is that a lot of brands use different measurements. Some are using projected area. Some are using total area. So it is really hard to pick a right size. And you look at the wind ranges on their website. You're like, no. They're ridiculous. Yeah. Someone's added a zero to those. They're putting like 15 knots of wind range. And it's like, wow. Do you want to know how they do this?

[00:46:23] They put some drinks and they go, let's say 22 knots. I don't doubt it. That's what they just think. Their website just gets made like that. Yeah. But actually, the truth is super difficult because each profile is different. The thickness, you know, how they pull. It's the same with foils. So, you know, we talk about 800 or 1,000 and you have 800 that pull us as a 100,000 square cm from another brand. But it's always a reference point we all like to use.

[00:46:52] But yes, it's difficult. Okay. To end, this is the two last questions. Sorry. Two questions. All right. First is how physical is seat? Because my friends, when you want to go upwind and push, it pushes. Like, you're doing way more effort than on a wing, right? No. Also, what about harnesses? I agree with Matt. I think it's the easiest of all of the sports as long as you, if you've got a wind background

[00:47:22] like kiting, it's so easy. You're just locked in and you just sit there and it just takes you off wind. I think it's the less physically demanding sport of all of them. I did windsurfing and there you have gear in your hand. It's powerful. The caroing is just like a feather. And yes, if you're hooked in and especially, I don't know who of you talked about the one loop or the two axis points of the harness. If you have double axis points with the harness, then you can just tilt it a little bit and

[00:47:51] you don't have to hold it or sheet in. You just tilt it and it stays on your harness. It's super comfortable. Great advice. I agree. I agree. Windsurfing is for real men, grown men. We're just, it's true. It's true. I mean, I windsurfed all my life and I go now and I can do 10 minutes. 10 minutes and then I can go on. So I'm like, how did I do three hours back in the day? 10 minutes and done. So yeah, totally.

[00:48:20] That being said, like yesterday we had 40 knots. Like really. And I was with my two and a half meter pow. I was overpowered and it was quite twitchy and huge, huge waves. But as soon as I was on foil and packed it away, it was like totally another level. And Dan, I actually wanted to talk to you about it because you always, you're an advocate of stashing the right way and correctly. Right. And I'm just like, get it away as soon as possible.

[00:48:49] But because as soon as you turn. Hang on, hang on. Hang on. If, if as soon as you turn that pouch, you're in a different mode. While you're still like packing and focusing on that, you're still not 100% focused on the waves. And for me, as I am an average rider, really, for me, that's super important to turn a pouch around and then focus on the bumps. Also, you know, if I take it out again, because I fall regularly, it gives me some time. Like I can breathe. I can like untangle.

[00:49:19] Pow is terrible with all the same lines, same colored lines. But, you know, it gives me some time to untangle, to breathe and then get back up. For me, it's not a problem if it's not stashed perfectly. Hmm. I, I, yeah, look, if you're going downwind, it really doesn't matter. If you're doing a 20 kilometer downwind run, you really don't want to see it again. But the type of riding that I do, I do laps mostly.

[00:49:42] And if I sit down untangling my parowings every time I have to, like if I come on foil or if I want to redeploy, that's like two minutes to five minutes. If you do that 10 times, that's 50 minutes off your session. Like I start looking at those numbers and that's when I started to, to, to realize I need to make this relaunch successful, you know? Um, but it, look, I, there, there are a lot of ways that you can do it.

[00:50:09] I think what we really need in the industry is possibly a simpler type of accessory to stow. Um, and there's, there's a few out there, um, that is kind of just a chest stow. So if you run your hands through the A lines, something you can just shove in initially, but you keep some elements separate, like the leading edge and the lines and the bar in a sort of separate, you know, um, orientation that would help heaps.

[00:50:37] Because honestly, like at the beginning, like you're, you're packing that thing and your vision just like condenses into your hand. Right. Right. And, and you get that tunnel vision, you don't see anything else. And then you might come off foil as you get more experience with that movement. Like now, if I'm stowing, I'm not looking at it. And I kind of know if I'm doing a good job or not. It's a tactile thing, you know?

[00:51:02] Um, but it, you need to do it fucking like a hundred times for you to feel that you're doing it right or wrong. But I, um, I, I, I love the redeploy, man. I, there's no better feeling of doing a run and getting it out. Bang. You redeploy, you go back up. I'm like, okay, wrong. After I do that the first time, then I'm into my session. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree, mate.

[00:51:23] And there's three things that like I always say to people when they're learning to do this from the beginning, because it makes your life so much harder, like six months down the line. And the first one is, is practice the, the, the pack down. And, um, I call it the, um, the foil rat technique or the rat bagging. That's what I call it. But it's, um, and I, and it's the same way that I hack it away at the end of a session. It's the same way that I do it. Like when I'm actually downwinding. So it's, it's just muscle memory.

[00:51:53] I don't even think about it. Like I can do it when I was closed. Like if you do that from day, day dot, it becomes so much easier. So that's the first one is like practicing. Yeah. I'm just stepping. The next one is, is learn to switch your feet so that you don't ride switch stance, like in this awkward twisted motion. Like I say to people, let's do that from the get go because it pays dividends later on. And then, and then the third one is, is learn to, to use a harness. That those three things just make your life so much easier.

[00:52:21] And you'll be surprised how many people don't do that. Like I see them all the time, like with a hand out like this twisted going, I'm going up, I'm going up wind. And you're like, you're not mate. You're making, you're making ground like that much. But that's not the same stuff. Great advice. Let's, let's talk about something, Daniel. When I see people stashing in the videos and also the pros, it's crazy because they are so good. They can't do anything, but sometimes they are like, they do leaps of faith.

[00:52:49] Like they throw the power wing and you see that it's totally twisted and, and they recover. But when I see, for example, Dimitri, they have this technique that he opens the leading edge. Really, really like 100% efficiency, you know, opens and, and it flies perfect. That's super cool. Also, another thing is when you stash it, a lot of people is stashing it. They, they push this way. And a lot of people, I see them, the power wing goes like down like this and they push down.

[00:53:19] You seen that? Like when you, when you stash it. So what do you think? What was the, what's the best way? I mean, I don't know. Like Matt, actually you, you, in your video, when you stash, your power wing goes down and then you stash down. And some of the people stashing straight up. But I think when you stash down, it can really heat the water and be something you need to work on. I'm not really the one to give advice.

[00:53:41] I tell you, I put the bar under my arm and then I have two arms free, a few hands free to do all the rest. And then all at, all at the end, I just place my bar on the top, which is also good for my pouch. Cause I have a pretty small pouch. And if I have the bar on top, then it keeps the power wing in cause the well-crows just too weak. That's how I do it. Yeah. With, with, with the stowing technique, man.

[00:54:07] Um, it's a tricky one because it also depends on your power wing. Like I, I've flown power wings that I collect the lead. The first, the, I love to talk about this because first thing I do when I get a power wing, I put it up and I start like stowing and doing all these things. And I look at like power wings, like the ergonomics, like how are the bridles? How are they, how they fixed, you know, do they have that separation now?

[00:54:34] Like some brands have four A lines separate from the outer A's, all those things, the thickness of the lines, like how do they feel when you actually roll your hands on them? All that stuff. And there are some brands out there that you can collect all your A lines and you actually don't have too much of an arc because power wings are curved, right? So your outer lines are shorter than your middle lines. So that's the big problem. That's why we collect the middle four.

[00:55:01] If you collect all of them, you're left with this big bowl that turns into, you know, problems. So what technique I would say depends on your power wing. Um, I like to do the four A line technique because, um, I get to the leading edge with probably 90% of the power wings out there. If I just go with the middle lines. Um, and I used to do that method where you cut, like you actually stall it and then you grab all the lines.

[00:55:28] But that for me kind of ended up where I was running my hands through the lines and maybe sometimes the power wing would start twisting around. Um, just because of, you know, it's, if it's 30 knots and you're going down when you still have a parent wind on you. So it'll still cause that. So I, I would recommend just, um, do the four A line method. Um, and all you need to do really is be able to collect the leading edge, the bar and the lines all separately.

[00:55:57] It doesn't really matter how you do it. I have my technique that I've been doing for a while so I can do it quick. Um, and if you're able to have a power wing that to your point, what Dimitri does. And I think that is probably one of the most important things for successful redeployment. It's not really chuck it out. You know, that, that toss that everybody wants to do. Like it's really think about the redeployment as an unfolding, you're reversing that order.

[00:56:25] And then once you look at it, you can, you can see tangles. Sometimes you can even undo little things that are snagged on the bar. And that slow redeployment as you're going downwind is important. If you start going crosswind too much, that power wing is going to get power straight away. So allow yourself some time. Yeah. Allow yourself some time, allow yourself some time on the wave as well. You know, preempt that it takes time to redeploy or unfold.

[00:56:53] You know, it's not like bang, it's up there. So to not come off foil, just do that with plenty of time and it should, should work. Yeah. In terms of, in terms of the technique, because it also, um, it prolongs the life of the power wing if you do it correctly. Because if you, um, just shove it in, you know, put it in and then we downwinding fuck it. We'll sort that out later.

[00:57:18] What happens is that it ends up like, um, bending the batons in the leading edge and then it warps them. And it means you don't go upwind as well. And like, I've, there's so many of them I see on the beach that just got kinks in the leading edge. And then all of a sudden it becomes massively draggy and then it collapses because the drag just gets to a certain point. So always making sure you concertina that leading edge and keeping the batons. It comes from, you know, the kite racing guys that just, they look after it.

[00:57:46] Like, you know, that leading edge is always concertina. And, um, and, and, and wings just like, they just behave so much better when you do that. And it comes to looking after that. All you have to do is, um, is make sure that when you pack it away, that leading edge is concertina'd. And then after a session, make sure you dry it out and make sure it's dried when you get home, then do the same thing. concertina it, wrap it up, put it in the bag. And then it will last. Like I've got my frigate. I've had that for, um, over a year now and it's still immaculate.

[00:58:16] It still works perfectly. It still looks great just because I do that every single time in, in deploying on the water and also when I get home. So this, I think that's a really important point to the wings that they are now. Sure. That would change in a year's time. I think, Dan, um, like if you redeploy because your downwind session is over, that's a good thing. My downwind part is usually over when I like out of bumps, like, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit. Let's go.

[00:58:44] And I don't have time to unfold because I would have started yes earlier, but usually it's too late by then. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and you know what, what you should do is don't even go for the parrowing. And I tell that to people as well. By the time you get it out, you're going to go down. So you might as well learn how to dig yourself out of those holes that you get to in downwind runs. Like how slow can you start bumping again and regain that speed?

[00:59:12] If you don't put yourself in that situation, and this is what we see with wingers. This is what we see with foil drivers all the time. You know, they're on, they start squirting that thing. If you don't put yourself and, and, and, okay, this is how I need to, where do I go? How do I get out of this? That's when you learn. And, and, and that's the difference of a two kilometer downwind to a 40 kilometer downwind. It's literally that leap because if you are able to learn how to get yourself unstuck of

[00:59:41] a bad situation or a bad decision, you can go forever because you know how to regain that speed with your foil. So it's so important to not even try, Matt, just, just say, I got to unpump myself out of this. And you're back on foil, Matt. You're back on foil. You know, you know, it's, it's funny. And I, I a hundred percent think that if people want to get into like downwinding with the

[01:00:06] pair wing, they should a hundred percent stash and not just collapse it and hold it just due to that reason. Cause you're so much in a different zone trying to, to get those bumps. Usually for me, it's over because I breach or I like hit the rail or nosedive cause it's just something happens. You're just carving too, too much, man. You're just doing all that. Too much. Carlos, anything else to add as we wrap this puppy up?

[01:00:33] Well, first I want to say this amazing information here. I mean, I'm super happy because we're covering a lot of ground and people really need to watch this episode because it will help them a lot. To finish, I'd like to make the last question is to you guys that have been trying a lot of different equipment. What are the bits of each brand that like a Frankenstein, if you will, you were to build

[01:00:58] a Frankenstein brand, like which lines, which textile or which pouch bag, like what's the direction? Because I think this information is going to be good for people and brands because you have this knowledge. What is the, what do they need to look to, to improve, to make a more rounder? I'm going to jump in this straight away because I used the Ozone Power Pack today for the first time in a long time.

[01:01:26] I probably like, I haven't used it for about a month and the lines on that thing are incredible. Like the spliced lines, like it's unbelievable. Like I can't believe no one else is doing it. It makes such a difference. So spliced, the Ozone spliced lines, they've got this waxy coat to it. This is the Power Pack, not the Pocket Rocket. That's, that's the gold standard for me. So that's the first one, those lines. Yeah.

[01:01:53] And the thickness of those lines as well. Like the A's are a little bit thicker and they just, we've never had to have something that we run our hands through the lines before, you know, lines have to be sturdy. They can't like stretch and that's it. Now we have to make them feel good on our hands. And I agree that the Power Pack, it's a good one. Yeah. In that, in that regard, Paraguins are going to change a lot because in Paraguinging last

[01:02:22] year, they're really working with that, with the, how you call that? Like the line. The bridling. Schedule, right? Like the schedule is simplifying it and make it, as you said, like perfect. So this is a great point. This is something I think we all agree. I remember Dimitri also said it's so nice to do that on the Ozones. And on top of that, they split, like they did what I, I used to get a little electrical tape and just tape my four middle lines together.

[01:02:50] So like I'm riding and I could just touch it. And then I knew I was on the right spot. They did that. And when I saw it, I almost cried. I'm like, thank God. And it, it, it also helps depowering when it's super overpowered because the wingtips kind of flag out a little bit, and if you let go of the rear of the bar, you can depower when it's like super overpowered as well. So it helps a little bit with that, but primarily just the feel of getting to the leading edges. Yeah. What else?

[01:03:20] What else? What else? The, the, the bag of either the Veyu or the, uh, the new North, the, the, the backpack that you can take with you. Yes. A hundred percent. Quality. The, the, um, the canopy of the ozone, um, pocket rocket. That canopy is epic. Um, the, and the VNG of the, the POW or the, uh, pocket rocket.

[01:03:49] So the Boston velocity made good, its ability to go quickly and upwind. Um, and the bar of the, um, probably either the, um, stash or the, um, the Veyu. I'd probably be my Frankenstein. Good, good. That's great to know. What about the poach bags? Can I do mine as well? Can I do mine as well?

[01:04:18] Because I really like the hybrid thing. It makes it so stable. I think no bar should be longer than, I don't know what that is. 30 centimeters. No bar should be. I can tell you. I've got a, I've got a stretch in that. Yes. But it's 30, 32 centimeters. Any longer than 32 is a no game. It's just no bar or no parowing setup should have a line in the middle. Still.

[01:04:47] We should all have this arch. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, what, what everyone did with the, with the quest. You said, ah, they split it. I love that, that, that lines thing they did. And also I think no line should be longer than let's say one meter, 70 centimeters. That should be like the max. So everyone can just have one go. Everyone that is over 170, but like 170, 65, something like that should be maximum for every size of parallel.

[01:05:16] Man, what a podcast, like practitioners, brands, everybody's going to learn from here. All right, fellas. It was nice to see y'all. And yeah, we're going to have to do this again. Maybe we can pick another topic and I'll come back on. Yeah. Sounds good, man. It's been great. Thank you. Bye-bye. Cheers. You. You.